Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[ag]

The Austrian broadcaster ORF today said in their main evening news show that more than 80% of Hungarians (!) backed the tough new isolationist policies of the Orban government on the border.

Yet another central European country that wasn't properly de-Nazified (de-Horthyfied?). Very sad.

Now this is too much. Four decades under communist rule and 1956 wasn't enough for you?

The Soviets did not do proper denazification. They screwed them up - certainly, true. But ideologically they were far too close to being Nazis themselves.

[rob in cal]

     The support level for Orban's stance is intriguing.  Clearly he is getting support from people who otherwise don't support his regime, if in fact its 80%.  I'd love to see some countries hold referenda on this issue, with a question such as " should our country accept EU mandated quotas, or should we have our own choice on the issue".

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Yeah, there's a reason referenda typically have to be a little less load than that lmao.

[politicus]

Experts here are speculating that with Hungary going tough tomorrow, the migrants will simply move to the Croatian border and then try to come via Slovenia into Austria and then to Germany.

Should only be a matter of days ...

With the Croatian government being refugee positive that is an obvious solution, but not sure whether Slovenia will accept this. They have a Liberal/SD coalition, but may very well choose a harder line (at least if the pressure becomes as massive as in Hungary now. What does Austrian media say about Slovenia on this?

[Simfan34]

The Austrian broadcaster ORF today said in their main evening news show that more than 80% of Hungarians (!) backed the tough new isolationist policies of the Orban government on the border.

Yet another central European country that wasn't properly de-Nazified (de-Horthyfied?). Very sad.

Now this is too much. Four decades under communist rule and 1956 wasn't enough for you?

The Soviets did not do proper denazification. They screwed them up - certainly, true. But ideologically they were far too close to being Nazis themselves.

I would begin angrily flapping my arms at this if I did not know you better. In lieu of that, might I ask in what ways were Soviet denazification efforts in the Eastern Bloc insufficient? Surely the "special camps" and the crushing of "neo-fascist bourgeois reaction" in 1956 went far beyond anything in the West? Of course, this completely overlooks the question of whether Horthy deserves to be demonised to such an extent at all, but that's beside the point.

Yes, Orban is a populist who, despite a fair amount of positive attributes, decidedly leaves much to be wanted (particularly his cozying up to the revanchist Putin, despite history), and yes, Jobbik are a utterly loathsome group of ultra-nationalists whose success reflects badly on their country as a whole, but to act as if the entirety of the Hungarian people are somehow exhibiting crypto-Nazi tendencies in favouring strict border controls is patent absurdity.

One would have to completely disregard the fact that these refugees represent a significant financial and logistical burden on their host countries, or that a non-negligible portion of these asylum-seekers appear to be doing so under false or misleading pretenses-- that they are feigning their refugee status and are simply economic migrants, or that they come from ethnoreligious backgrounds that European countries have had difficulty integrating into their societies-- while migrants generally appear to plan on remaining permanently, or that Germany's mercurial policy towards admission means that a transiting country could unexpectedly find itself having to host a large number of refugees. None of these concerns make one a "fascist" or in need of "denazification", as they're entirely reasonable.

It's very easy to condemn the responses of countries like Hungary as morally deficient and anti-humanitarian, and in all fairness it's not hard to see why one would draw such a conclusion. Putting up barbed wire fences to keep out people fleeing a horrific civil war, particularly those escaping ISIL, seeking mere respite from unceasing violence. Stories of children drowning at sea, hundreds of lives lost on capsized boats, are gut-wrenching and instill a sense that anything and everything must be done to stop the loss of life.

It is one thing to criticise those demonising refugees, but criticism of those calling for restraint is another entirely. Such criticism of criticism is unproductive for as long as no viable alternative is being proposed-- and "accept everyone seeking asylum" is not viable from an economic, social, political, logistical, or practical standpoint.

Orban's proposal of setting up refugee camps is in all honesty a more sustainable solution if we are talking in the range of millions. The refugee camps could be planned as medium-term (in the range of 4-7 years) settlements that would provide safety, shelter, and basic sustenance, while being able to sustain their own internal economy and thus provide a meaningful living for their residents. The refugee camps could be allowed a degree of responsible administration. They could have their own institutions-- administrative, educational, medical, etc. The refugees' institutions would be able to employ skilled workers (civil servants, teachers, academics, doctors, etc.) that would otherwise be unable to apply their skill set in another country, as is too often the case with educated immigrants, who instead end up doing menial jobs like driving taxis.

Of course, this is only a viable plan if the conflicts end within that timeframe, otherwise the "temporary settlements" would become "permanent minority enclaves".  This would require, as I've said time and time again, a far more comprehensive European response to the Syrian and Libyan conflicts and a proactive effort to bring it to an end-- that is, direct intervention. This sounds exceedingly drastic, but it must be weighed against the alternative of having to permanently accommodate millions of refugees. In terms of monetary cost-comparison, it's hard to imagine that the former would be more costly, in the long run, than the latter.

It's a matter of political will-- take action now and pay nothing later, or do nothing now and pay the costs later. It's a solution nonetheless-- and one is in no position to criticise those asking questions if they do so without one.

[Simfan34]

Of the asylum seekers who came to Finland last month, two thirds were Iraqi. Somalis were the second biggest group. Less than five percent were Syrians. Which makes it all the more absurd to see the media here combine the coverage of the asylum seeker crisis with the coverage of the war in Syria.

Three quarters of the asylum seekers are adult men, yet the media chooses to use images of women and children in order to mislead the public and appeal to the emotions.

It does deserve mention that it's not as if Iraq or Somalia are particularly peaceful places at the moment, nor, indeed, that the Syrian and Iraqi conflicts have nothing to do with each other. People fleeing ISIL are people fleeing ISIL.

Nor do I think that there's anything particularly "misleading" about the media choosing to focus on women and children refugees. It certainly is an emotive focus, but it's one that you see in pretty much every tragedy, since most people are inclined to see women and children as particularly vulnerable (which, in times like these, they generally are). Again, it's also not as if the men aren't suffering or somehow lack the ability to be victims, either.

[ag]

The Austrian broadcaster ORF today said in their main evening news show that more than 80% of Hungarians (!) backed the tough new isolationist policies of the Orban government on the border.

Yet another central European country that wasn't properly de-Nazified (de-Horthyfied?). Very sad.

Now this is too much. Four decades under communist rule and 1956 wasn't enough for you?

The Soviets did not do proper denazification. They screwed them up - certainly, true. But ideologically they were far too close to being Nazis themselves.

I would begin angrily flapping my arms at this if I did not know you better. In lieu of that, might I ask in what ways were Soviet denazification efforts in the Eastern Bloc insufficient?

That is, actually, very easy. The Soviets never, really, explained, what was it that was wrong about the Nazis. In the internal Soviet discourse the Nazis were bad because they attacked the Soviets: - a point which might, arguably, be lost on the Hungarians - and I do not blame them, actually. The Soviets could not properly denazify because doing that would be... anti-Soviet. You would have to explain why the Nazis were evil - but on most of those counts they were not substantially different from the Soviets. Hungarians were pretty much told that what the Nazis did wrong was to start and lose a war, and that their own leaders were wrong in betting on a wrong horse. That the victors' justice was heavy-handed was no denazification, but simple revenge.

In a certain sense, the Berlin Airlift was, by itself, a much more efficient denazificaiton measure than anything the Soviets would dare to do.

Unfortunately, commenting on the rest of your post, according to some participants of these boards, would mean trolling. So, I am forced to hold off, while thinking of that boy Motl, son of a cantor in Kasrilovke.

[Simfan34]

I think we're both fairly reasonable people. I'd be disappointed if you didn't offer your thoughts-- provided you aren't trying to insinuate that refugee camps are comparable to ghettoes.

[ag]

I think we're both fairly reasonable people. I'd be disappointed if you didn't offer your thoughts-- provided you aren't trying to insinuate that refugee camps are comparable to ghettoes.

Refugee camps may very well be a temporary logistical necessity. Their implementation in Hungary, from what I have heard so far, has been a disgrace - by design I am afraid. Though, of course, there are many wonderful Hungarian volunteers who have been trying to do something about it.

The reason I would prefer not to say much more in this thread (or, for that matter, on this board) is that, unfortunately, at this point I cannot stand far too many of the other posters here. Our worldview is too far apart. They read different books as children, I am afraid. I read about Motele and his family - and they did not.

[Hnv1]

I think we're both fairly reasonable people. I'd be disappointed if you didn't offer your thoughts-- provided you aren't trying to insinuate that refugee camps are comparable to ghettoes.

Refugee camps may very well be a temporary logistical necessity. Their implementation in Hungary, from what I have heard so far, has been a disgrace - by design I am afraid. Though, of course, there are many wonderful Hungarian volunteers who have been trying to do something about it.

The reason I would prefer not to say much more in this thread (or, for that matter, on this board) is that, unfortunately, at this point I cannot stand far too many of the other posters here. Our worldview is too far apart. They read different books as children, I am afraid. I read about Motele and his family - and they did not.

I read the Silmarillion loads of Elven refugees there

[rob in cal]

    With Germany mentioning that countries refusing their migrant quotas might see their EU subsidies in jeopardy, that brings up the question of cost benefits of immigration.  In the US the pro high immigration side often talks about how the US benefits economically from high amounts of immigration.  So, if this is true in this case in Europe, those countries refusing to take migrants are foregoing some economic benefits and thus if anything should be economically rewarded by the EU rather than penalized, as they are abstaining from the great demographic bonanza/gold rush that Germany is going to enjoy for generations to come.

[Tender Branson]

The hordes of illegal (men) at the Hungarian border got a little antsy today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfrpwAEMe0c

[Tender Branson]

Now the illegals are bringing the war in Syria with them to the Hungarian border:

[Tender Branson]

Wow, that Reuters tweet (... is on to something):



https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/644186188132298753

Now the illegals are bringing the war in Syria with them to the Hungarian border:

[Tender Branson]

Some pictures of Hungary going tough today with water cannons, tear gas, anti-terror forces and military equipment:

















http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/ungarn-gewalt-zwischen-fluechtlingen-und-polizei-fotostrecke-130150.html

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

It's heartening to see rich Syrian culture coming to stuffy old Hungary.

[politicus]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3234458/Two-100-Syrian-migrants-ISIS-fighters-PM-warned-Lebanese-minister-tells-Cameron-extremist-group-sending-jihadists-cover-attack-West.html

[rob in cal]

   Some opponents of the legitimacy of this whole migrant crisis have pointed out that young males dominate the demographics of the migrants.  They argue that if this was a fully legitimate group of refugees, women and children, as well as older people would be much more represented.  OTOH, younger males would be most likely to be dragged into the actual fighting in these countries.

[Tender Branson]

The scene here in Salzburg: About 2.000 people have arrived at the Austrian-German border, but the German police only allows groups of 50 people per hour over the border in a controlled manner. Meanwhile, the Salzburg train station is bursting with migrants and the parking garage has been transformed into a sleeping place for the day and night and it includes a provisional kindergarden:

[Simfan34]

I'm glad some have achieved a degree of normalcy and are learning.

[DavidB.]

Some pictures of Hungary going tough today with water cannons, tear gas, anti-terror forces and military equipment:

















http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/ungarn-gewalt-zwischen-fluechtlingen-und-polizei-fotostrecke-130150.html

Sigh. They're truly bringing Syria to Europe. In time, they will make Amsterdam look like Ramallah. I'd rather these people won't enter the EU. Fycking madness.

The support level for Orban's stance is intriguing.  Clearly he is getting support from people who otherwise don't support his regime, if in fact its 80%.  I'd love to see some countries hold referenda on this issue, with a question such as " should our country accept EU mandated quotas, or should we have our own choice on the issue".

Well, it's not as if there's much doubt about the outcome of such a referendum. At least in countries not called "Germany". And this is exactly the reason why such a referendum won't take place.

[ag]

Since I no longer can bear this conversation, I will let Motele talk do the talking:

"I can´t tell you how long we ran. The forest was already behind us. Dawn was breaking. We were sweating like mad, even though a cool breeze was blowing. We came to a street. Another street. A white church. Gardens. Yards. Little houses.

A Jew was coming towards us, driving a goat. He had the longest earlocks I've ever seen, a long tatty gabardine and a long shawl around his neck. We stopped to say hello. He stared at us. Pinye struck up a conversation. The Jew had a strange way of talking. I mean, he talked our language but he did not talk it like we do. Pinye asked, if we were near the border. 'What border?' the Jew asked. It seems, the border was far behind us.

'In that case, why are we running like lunatics?'"

[MaxQue]

The scene here in Salzburg: About 2.000 people have arrived at the Austrian-German border, but the German police only allows groups of 50 people per hour over the border in a controlled manner. Meanwhile, the Salzburg train station is bursting with migrants and the parking garage has been transformed into a sleeping place for the day and night and it includes a provisional kindergarden:

If only young male adults are coming, what's the use of a kindergarten?

[Tender Branson]

The scene here in Salzburg: About 2.000 people have arrived at the Austrian-German border, but the German police only allows groups of 50 people per hour over the border in a controlled manner. Meanwhile, the Salzburg train station is bursting with migrants and the parking garage has been transformed into a sleeping place for the day and night and it includes a provisional kindergarden:

If only young male adults are coming, what's the use of a kindergarten?

I never said that "only" men are coming. I said that of those who come, about 70-80% are male ...

[DavidB.]

Since I no longer can bear this conversation, I will let Motele talk do the talking:

"I can´t tell you how long we ran. The forest was already behind us. Dawn was breaking. We were sweating like mad, even though a cool breeze was blowing. We came to a street. Another street. A white church. Gardens. Yards. Little houses.

A Jew was coming towards us, driving a goat. He had the longest earlocks I've ever seen, a long tatty gabardine and a long shawl around his neck. We stopped to say hello. He stared at us. Pinye struck up a conversation. The Jew had a strange way of talking. I mean, he talked our language but he did not talk it like we do. Pinye asked, if we were near the border. 'What border?' the Jew asked. It seems, the border was far behind us.

'In that case, why are we running like lunatics?'"

I'm not interested in your response but I still wanted to make this point, because this comparison seems to be all over the place, also in Dutch politics.

The migration of Jews within Europe was in no way comparable to the migration of these migrants from the Middle East. For starters, I don't think there have been instances when Jews used violence against the police like on the pictures posted by Tender, behaving like a crowd that seeks a revolution rather than a safe haven. Secondly, Jews genuinely fled from persecution and stayed where they were safe. They didn't cross nine safe countries in order to go to the country with the most beneficial welfare system and expect to get everything for free for the rest of their lives, or complain about living in small apartments built in the 50s (such as in Sweden, now). Thirdly, they didn't behave aggressively toward the native population in an area - in fact, it was the other way round. Now look at the crime statistics in Sweden and see how many of those crimes are perpetrated by migrants... And if you see the pictures of the migrants at the Hungarian border, one can only fear what's going to happen in Europe when these people have European passports.

I am proud of the fact that my ancestors never behaved in such a bizarre way. We didn't come to our countries to mooch off the welfare system with an "entitlement" mentality and use violence against people who didn't give us what we wanted, we came here to be safe. The comparison between Jews and the new migrants from the Middle East is not only factually wrong on many levels, it also constitutes historical revisionism toward the attitude of Jews. It is insulting. My family were refugees. I have quite some understanding for people who truly flee their countries, probably more than most Dutch. But I don't have any respect for people who travel to rich countries in order to live large while throwing stones to the police and saying hateful things about native populations.