Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread
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Author Topic: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread  (Read 126424 times)
Helsinkian
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« Reply #600 on: September 29, 2015, 07:49:32 PM »

Send 'em all there then, lets see how it plays out.

They can start by keeping the thousands of Iraqis who are traveling through Sweden to seek asylum in Finland.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #601 on: September 29, 2015, 10:14:00 PM »
« Edited: September 29, 2015, 10:15:52 PM by DavidB. »

After a weekend of extensive rioting and showdown in several German asylum centers Germany now starts debating dividing Muslims and Christians in separate camps.

Many of the fights is about religion, and the deputy chairman for the German police union Jörg Radek says it makes sense to divide people by their religion:

- "We must do everything to prevent further outbreaks of violence. And separate accommodation for religion, I think makes sense"
Dutch police officials immediately proposed to do this as well in the Netherlands, saying the situation has gone out of control. There has been much media attention for some instances last week when Christian asylum seekers in the Netherlands were threatened by Muslims, e.g. in Rotterdam. An absolutely incredible situation. If these people can't behave in asylum seeker centers then they will surely adapt just fine to Dutch society in which they will encounter non-Muslims every day... Roll Eyes

SGP leader Kees van der Staaij said he wants to make sure that the law which says that people who misbehave in asylum seeker centers will be sent out (this already exists) will actually be enforced. A good first step, even if it's too little, too late.
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dead0man
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« Reply #602 on: September 29, 2015, 11:17:08 PM »

but remember, you're the bigot if you don't want economic migrants coming to your country by the millions.  Somehow.
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rob in cal
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« Reply #603 on: September 30, 2015, 12:44:22 AM »

   The Hungarian Prime Minister Orban  has a productive suggestion about the migrants.  World-wide quotas, not Europe wide.  I'm sure this will go over really well, and that in the next few days we will see how generous and accepting the world will be to these migrants, leaving Europe in the dust so to speak, as country after country around the world will rush to take in as many as possible. 
   All kidding aside, I would strongly support the idea of wealthier countries helping any poor country that takes migrants with strong financial backing.  I could imagine a broad consensus of European parties and political figures getting behind this.
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politicus
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« Reply #604 on: October 01, 2015, 07:21:28 AM »

Not going well in Germany:

The last few weeks German media have repeatedly described how refugees and migrants have waged large mass brawl, using batons, knives and homemade weapons. On several occasions, hundreds have participated in the violent clashes.

Rainer Wendt, chairman of the German police union:

- When groups are beating up each other at night, all those who stood at the train station in Munich and applauded when the refugees arrived are asleep. But police officers are awake and in the midst of it all

He says its not a new development, but has been going on for weeks and months and describes how the groups structure themselves according to ethnic, religious or clan and family relationships in what he calls tough criminal structures.

It is particularly Christians among the refugees who need special protection and in particular single women and children.

- This includes sexual assault and rape. But we are far from a complete overview of the problems, because women and children are often afraid to report to the police.

Violent incidents most often originate among Muslim groups:

- Here Sunnis are fighting against Shiites and there is also the Salafists who are trying to control the religious agenda.

German newspaper Die Welt describes how fanatical Salafists want to usurp power in several refugee reception centers.

TV station Bayerischer Rundfunk has interview a Christian family coming from Iraq, who told they were placed in a camp where Islamists among other things, had threatened the family with the words "We will kill you and drink your blood"

The estimate for how many refugees Germany will receive this year has been increased from 800,000  to 1 mio. and thats only the figure for this year. No one among the Germany authorities have dared to speculate how many that will arrive next year, or at least say so out loud.

At the same time the German authorities estimate that at least every third migrant don't come from Syria, but other countries.

German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere:

- There are people who claim to come from Syria, but did not speak one word of Arabic. Yet have Syrian documents and passports.
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politicus
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« Reply #605 on: October 01, 2015, 09:40:11 AM »
« Edited: October 01, 2015, 10:47:15 AM by politicus »

Iranian-Kurdish economist Tino Sanandaji from Stockholm Business School challenges the idea that taking refugees makes Sweden wealthy. He believes that Swedish politicians and media promote a myth that integration is going well and that the Syrian immigrants are highly educated and make Sweden richer, although the opposite is true.

Himself a refugee (his family fled to Sweden when he was nine) Sanandaji has a PhD in public policy from the University of Chicago, and he conducts research in economics at Stockholm Business School.

Tino Sanandaji is also one of the most outspoken critics of the current Swedish immigration policy, which he believes both politicians and the media give a false picture of. According to Sanandaji this policy will lead to both economic and social decay. There are some interviews with him in The Economist and on Al Jazeera and his blog is on www.tino.us

Points:

1) The current refugee figures are the new normal, which is more likely to rise than fall. The increased flow primarily reflects the generous rules in Sweden and a diffuse border. To argue that this is due to a unique or transient event in Syria is childish - 70% of the asylum seekers to Sweden are not from Syria. Because it has become much easier to come to Sweden and similar countries, each new conflict will lead to more asylum seekers.

2) UNHCR has called the new figures for asylum influx globally for the 'new normal'. The number of asylum seekers which came to Sweden in one week in September was 7,000. By comparison there came 19,000 in the whole of 1994, which internationally saw almost as many refugees as today.

3) Labour market participation among Swedes of working age is about 85%. For immigrants from countries outside Europe the figure is 52%, and it has been so the past fifteen years. Without work it is very difficult to integrate and impossible to contribute financially to society.

4) Sanandaji completely disagrees with the Swedish debaters that highlight immigration as an economic advantage for Sweden because of the country's demographic development and aging and calls it a myth.

"Immigration can compensate for an aging population on the condition that a sufficient number of migrants are actually working and paying taxes. But not if many in the group do not work and live on public assistance. So, to accept young people, many of whom are unemployed, do not compensate for an aging population; it only exacerbates the situation".

5) In Sweden the integration is so bad that refugee migration represents a huge and growing financial burden to be financed on top of the aging population. Not a single study, based on calculations of the actual income and expenditure, has shown otherwise.

6) The claim that Sweden needs immigration for demographic reasons is something that politicians have come up with in order to convince voters and isn't supported by economic research.

7) It is very difficult for low skilled or unskilled immigrants find work in Sweden, and many of the immigrants coming now are poorly educated. The only solution is education, which is notoriously extremely difficult in adulthood. Sweden has made great efforts to solve these problems over 20-30 years, but the numbers just look worse and worse.

8 ) The technological development that eliminates more and more unskilled jobs makes integration more difficult each passing year.

9) If Sweden maintains the current immigration policy the consequences are extremely serious. Gradual economic and social decay, so the rest of Sweden will develop in the direction of Malmö with extremely high social exclusion, inequality and social problems.

10) Immigrants now account for 16% of Sweden's population, but 55% of the long-term unemployed, and they receive 60% of the total welfare benefits. On average immigrants pay 40% less in taxes than ethnic Swedes despite a demographic advantage. As the group of immigrants grows, the tax base will steadily become smaller and smaller.

Also says that while ethnic Swedish colleagues agree with his analysis they are afraid to say so because of negative career consequences.

Whichever way you view the refugee debate you shouldn't succumb to the idiotic idea that "aging Europe" needs immigration. Integration costs a fortune and it rarely works well enough to pay off. Especially Nordic welfare states are not set up to receive mass immigration. We would basically have to dismantle all our social systems and switch to something much more neo-liberal to make it work, and even then it is doubtful if it would be a net benefit.

Generating wealth in the well functioning societies in the West and using a part of it to help as many refugees as possible in the areas where they come from is the rational solution. Undermining our economy and social model by letting them come here is irrational. We have been too selfish on this, but the solution isn't to accept mass migration of low skilled and culturally alien people, it is to create safe zones and help refugees where they are.

It is of course ironic that a highly skilled guy with refugee background tells us this, but when it comes to migration it is important to remain rational and look at the average and do the numbers, not look at the individual sunshine stories - and avoid false comparisons between societies with very different cultural and socioeconomic structures. What works in the US or Australia, won't necessarily work in Germany or Sweden.
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ingemann
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« Reply #606 on: October 01, 2015, 10:13:14 AM »

3) Labour market participation among Swedes of working age is about 85%. For immigrants from countries outside Europe, the figure is 52%, and it has been the past fifteen years. Without work, it is very difficult to integrate and impossible to contribute financially to society.

To make it even worse, if Sweden follow the Danish statistics for immigrants/refugees, the labour market participation are significant lower for Middle Eastern immigrants, while sub-Saharan Africans, Americans (both Anglo and Latin) and east and south east Asians pull the statistics up.
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ingemann
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« Reply #607 on: October 01, 2015, 10:14:59 AM »

Also "Danish police officer stabbed at asylum centre"

http://www.thelocal.dk/20150930/danish-police-officer-stabbed-at-asylum-centre
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rob in cal
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« Reply #608 on: October 01, 2015, 11:59:57 AM »

   Here's a cheering thought for Swedes concerned about the ethnic transformation of their country.  At some point, if in fact all this immigration leads to poor quality of life, a poorer economy, etc. etc. then immigrants will no longer want to go there.  Of course by that time, it might look like one big Malmo demographically and socially.
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Gunnar Larsson
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« Reply #609 on: October 01, 2015, 02:00:21 PM »

Of course by that time, it might look like one big Malmo demographically and socially.

The Horror!!
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rob in cal
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« Reply #610 on: October 01, 2015, 04:09:57 PM »

   Well, I would think that Swedes who don't like the ethnic transformation of their country would not like a Malmo situation, in that it has a 41 % either immigrant or children of immigrant population according to wikipedia, though a big chunk of them are from other European countries, which might be reassuring to some who would be more opposed to non-European immigration.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #611 on: October 01, 2015, 04:20:27 PM »
« Edited: October 01, 2015, 04:39:09 PM by DavidB. »

Of course by that time, it might look like one big Malmo demographically and socially.

The Horror!!
Well, yes. A Swedish friend of mine from Malmö told me that quite some people he knew (illegally) possessed handguns in order not to get carjacked by thugs. Something tells me that these thugs don't have names like Andersson or Nilsson.
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #612 on: October 02, 2015, 07:08:10 AM »
« Edited: October 02, 2015, 07:11:52 AM by Helsinkian »

Last year 3,600 asylum seekers arrived in Finland. The estimate for this year is up to 30,000 asylum seekers.

The new estimate is 50,000 asylum seeker by the year's end. God knows how many next year.

The numbers coming to Finland per capita are now fully comparable to those coming to Germany and Sweden. Up to 70 percent of the asylum seekers are Iraqi. Very few are Syrians. It seems that the Syrians want to go to Germany and Sweden, while all the Iraqis want to come to Finland. They are well aware of the statistics which show that Finland has been much more lenient in granting asylum or another form of residence permit to Iraqis compared to the other Nordic countries. (For example, Finnish and Swedish officials disagree on how dangerous Baghdad is.) And while Sweden has a bilateral agreement with Iraq on returning rejected asylum seekers, Finland has no similar arrangements. (Thus we see that Finland's immigration policy has not really been less lax than that of  Sweden; there simply have been less asylum seekers wanting to come here, but now that has changed fast.) The government is now trying to tighten the policy with regard to Iraqis, but it'll take time and a lot of damage has already been done.

Last year Finland only had about 40,000 muslims living in the country, so the number of muslims is set to double in a single year.
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Beezer
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« Reply #613 on: October 02, 2015, 08:08:09 AM »
« Edited: October 02, 2015, 09:09:39 AM by Beezer »

Poll #s are indicating a pretty major shift in attitudes in Germany (compared to polling data from September):

It scares me that so many refugees are coming into the country:



Does immigration bring advantages/disadvantages?



Are you satisfied with the work of




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DavidB.
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« Reply #614 on: October 02, 2015, 09:43:29 AM »

Last year 3,600 asylum seekers arrived in Finland. The estimate for this year is up to 30,000 asylum seekers.

The new estimate is 50,000 asylum seeker by the year's end. God knows how many next year.

The numbers coming to Finland per capita are now fully comparable to those coming to Germany and Sweden. Up to 70 percent of the asylum seekers are Iraqi. Very few are Syrians. It seems that the Syrians want to go to Germany and Sweden, while all the Iraqis want to come to Finland. They are well aware of the statistics which show that Finland has been much more lenient in granting asylum or another form of residence permit to Iraqis compared to the other Nordic countries. (For example, Finnish and Swedish officials disagree on how dangerous Baghdad is.) And while Sweden has a bilateral agreement with Iraq on returning rejected asylum seekers, Finland has no similar arrangements. (Thus we see that Finland's immigration policy has not really been less lax than that of  Sweden; there simply have been less asylum seekers wanting to come here, but now that has changed fast.) The government is now trying to tighten the policy with regard to Iraqis, but it'll take time and a lot of damage has already been done.

Last year Finland only had about 40,000 muslims living in the country, so the number of muslims is set to double in a single year.
Wow. I feel bad for you guys. I'd surely be mad as hell if I were a Finn who had voted for PS.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #615 on: October 02, 2015, 10:44:46 AM »

64% of Germans approve of Schäuble? That's the scariest number.
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politicus
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« Reply #616 on: October 02, 2015, 11:03:37 AM »

64% of Germans approve of Schäuble? That's the scariest number.

Why wouldn't they? He is only enacting traditional mainstream German beliefs about economics.
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ingemann
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« Reply #617 on: October 02, 2015, 11:34:39 AM »

Of course by that time, it might look like one big Malmo demographically and socially.

The Horror!!
Well, yes. A Swedish friend of mine from Malmö told me that quite some people he knew (illegally) possessed handguns in order not to get carjacked by thugs. Something tells me that these thugs don't have names like Andersson or Nilsson.

Malmö (or parts of it at least) is a hell hole, but it's a hell hole by Scandinavian standards (which mean that Rosengård (the worst area in Malmö) is less crime ridden than the average western city), so I personally think that the guys your friend knew was full of it.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #618 on: October 03, 2015, 11:02:27 AM »

After passing the constitutional "law of force", the government has now started to force asylum seekers on 4 Austrian cities and another 11 mayors have been notified that asylum camps will be opened in their towns in the next days (no matter if the citizens/mayors consent to it or not) ...

That could also mean that a town of just 500 people could be the site of 100-200 asylum seekers soon and so on ...

The Austrian population is slowly being put under tutelage by our governing moral-apostles.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #619 on: October 03, 2015, 11:26:53 AM »
« Edited: October 03, 2015, 01:56:45 PM by DavidB. »

Malmö (or parts of it at least) is a hell hole, but it's a hell hole by Scandinavian standards (which mean that Rosengård (the worst area in Malmö) is less crime ridden than the average western city), so I personally think that the guys your friend knew was full of it.
Hmm, I think areas like Rosengård (and Rinkeby in Stockholm) are arguably worse than any Dutch "ghetto", and we have quite some problematic areas, especially in Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague. I think Rosengård is even quite bad by European standards.

The problem in Sweden is that these ghettos are situated in remote areas, a bit like the French banlieues (Skärholmen or Tenstå, for instance, are incredibly far away from Stockholm's city center). This adds geographical segregation to the cultural and economic segregation with mainstream society that many immigrants experience, and thus hampers integration. Dutch and Belgian "ghettos" are generally closer to the inner cities, although the Bijlmer in Amsterdam is a notable, infamous exception, far away from the city with huge commieblocks and dirty elevated subway stations (although they're trying to gentrify it).

That being said, yes, it could be that my friend (or his friends) said this just to sound cool / "gangster".
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ingemann
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« Reply #620 on: October 03, 2015, 11:32:19 AM »

It's a good description of most Swedish ghettho's but Rosengård is a little different because it lies in Malmö, which are more compact than most Swedish cities. So Rosengård are more like Vollmose or Blågårds Plads in how it's part of the greater city than Rinkeby, which is like you describes.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #621 on: October 03, 2015, 11:34:37 AM »

It's a good description of most Swedish ghettho's but Rosengård is a little different because it lies in Malmö, which are more compact than most Swedish cities. So Rosengård are more like Vollmose or Blågårds Plads in how it's part of the greater city than Rinkeby, which is like you describes.
You're of course right, Rosengård is actually an exception to this rule.
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politicus
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« Reply #622 on: October 03, 2015, 01:41:25 PM »
« Edited: October 03, 2015, 02:18:52 PM by politicus »

An internal Austrian report states that the large and continuing flow of refugees that over the past several months have arrived in Europe could result in a number of serious risk scenarios.

The report is entitled 'Sonderberichterstattung und Analyse der derzeitigen Migrationslage' - 'Special report and analysis of the current migration situation'.

The report concludes, that as a result of the situation in Austria the police may be overburdened and that there is a threat to the maintenance of public order.

In addition, there is the danger that the asylum and supply system can be overstretched, just as there is a risk of inter-religious and inter-ethnic conflicts breaking out among migrants.

'There is a danger that the judicial and legal structures could be put out of force'

The report was really only for internal use, but several Austrian media have gotten hold of it anyway.

First, excerpts has been brought on Austrian TV, and then the full text in Krone Zeitung.

Krone Zetiung subsequently put the report on the net.

http://de.scribd.com/doc/282572361/Sonderberichterstattung-und-Analyse-der-derzeitigen-Migrationslage

The authorities initially denied the existence of the report, due to its politically explosive content.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #623 on: October 04, 2015, 11:17:37 AM »

The Austrian Left turned out in big numbers yesterday in Vienna in support for the refugees:

European migrant crisis: 150,000 march in Vienna in solidarity with asylum seekers

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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-04/150000-march-in-vienna-in-solidarity-with-asylum-seekers/6826718











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Helsinkian
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« Reply #624 on: October 05, 2015, 06:20:09 AM »
« Edited: October 05, 2015, 06:23:27 AM by Helsinkian »

Recently the asylum seekers in Oulu, Northern Finland, organised a protest where they demanded better food at their accomodation. The protest was led by an Iraqi man who said that the food (the same food eaten by Finnish school children) they were given was suited only for dog-food. This man, as we find out, was a Lieutenant in the Iraqi Army before he left for Europe. What hope does Iraq have of defeating ISIS when even their officers are deserting in order to go to Europe? (Furthermore, what kind of gourmet dinners are they serving in the Iraqi Army?)



I can't see how any country could consider desertion as valid reason for granting asylum. If such a decision were made, how could any country punish its own deserters after that?
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