Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[Helsinkian]

Germany is now expecting for 1.5 million asylum seekers to arrive this year: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11911291/Germany-expects-up-to-1.5-million-migrants-in-2015.html

[DavidB.]

I can't see how any country could consider desertion as valid reason for granting asylum. If such a decision were made, how could any country punish its own deserters after that?

That entirely depends on the country and the context. There are countries in which there are many legitimate reasons to desert (not necessarily talking about Iraq now). Not every country is like Finland or the Netherlands, so deserting from one of our armies is morally different from deserting from an army in a country that mistreats its soldier or its people. For instance, I understand why people rather prefer to leave Eritrea and apply for asylum.

[rob in cal]

    Consider me old-fashioned, but if I were German I'd want to see the German electorate directly involved in deciding how they feel about this transformation of Germany, either through some type of national referendum, or a traditional election in which the parties announce clear policies about what Germany's stance should be.

[DavidB.]

    Consider me old-fashioned, but if I were German I'd want to see the German electorate directly involved in deciding how they feel about this transformation of Germany, either through some type of national referendum, or a traditional election in which the parties announce clear policies about what Germany's stance should be.

Germany doesn't really do referendums, for obvious historical reasons. But yes, it is unfortunate that the current German population and even the next generations of Germans will become victims of a crime they themselves didn't commit. It is even more unfortunate (and ironic) that Gernany has bestowed this fundamental demographic change upon so many other European populations/countries, who don't have anything to say about this either.

[DavidB.]

Huge fight in a new asylum seeker facility in Overloon, the Netherlands, built in order to accommodate migrants who recently entered the country. Reportedly, many asylum seekers were intoxicated with alcohol. When people on Atlas are drunk they simply delete threads on elections in Southern Europe, but these asylum seekers had more damaging plans: they attacked each other with pipes, sticks and even knives. Windows and furniture got trashed. According to the Central Department for Asylum Seekers, the fight didn't stem from religious or cultural conflicts, but from the fact that "some people simply don't like each other". The asylum seekers involved hail from various countries.

[Beezer]

Well, these kinds of fights are an almost daily occurance in Germany now.

[The Last Northerner]

Recently the asylum seekers in Oulu, Northern Finland, organised a protest where they demanded better food at their accomodation. The protest was led by an Iraqi man who said that the food (the same food eaten by Finnish school children) they were given was suited only for dog-food. This man, as we find out, was a Lieutenant in the Iraqi Army before he left for Europe. What hope does Iraq have of defeating ISIS when even their officers are deserting in order to go to Europe? (Furthermore, what kind of gourmet dinners are they serving in the Iraqi Army?)



I can't see how any country could consider desertion as valid reason for granting asylum. If such a decision were made, how could any country punish its own deserters after that?

There are similar situations worth consideration - officers from southern Viet Nam  would have faced Red Terror if they stayed too long. This man's situation (and attitude) seems ridiculous though.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, these kinds of fights are an almost daily occurance in Germany now.

[DavidB.]

Madness in the small Dutch village of Oranje, in the north of the country. Deputy Immigration Minister Klaas Dijkhoff (VVD) came all the way from The Hague to this tiny remote place in order to personally inform the villagers of the fact that 700 more asylum seekers will need to go to the asylum seeker center in the village. When Dijkhoff wanted to leave, villagers blocked the road and trashed his car, breaking its mirrors. The villagers are still blocking the road. They say they will make sure the asylum seekers can go to the center, but they will have to walk through the village, because the villagers won't accept the buses to enter.

The mayor of the municipality had declined to accept the fact that 700 more asylum seekers would go to this facility, a doubling of the current amount of asylum seekers in the facility. This has been the first time that Dijkhoff simply forced a municipality to take in asylum seekers: Dijkhoff stated that this was necessary because he couldn't accept that asylum seekers would end up on the streets. The CDA is angry about this in parliament (for electoral reasons), and so is the "governor" of the province of Drenthe, who is a Labour member.

I have to admit that this is rather surreal to me. It feels like I'm living in another country than these people.

[Simfan34]

Recently the asylum seekers in Oulu, Northern Finland, organised a protest where they demanded better food at their accomodation. The protest was led by an Iraqi man who said that the food (the same food eaten by Finnish school children) they were given was suited only for dog-food. This man, as we find out, was a Lieutenant in the Iraqi Army before he left for Europe. What hope does Iraq have of defeating ISIS when even their officers are deserting in order to go to Europe? (Furthermore, what kind of gourmet dinners are they serving in the Iraqi Army?)

I can't see how any country could consider desertion as valid reason for granting asylum. If such a decision were made, how could any country punish its own deserters after that?

This does not help their case, no.

[Beezer]

This is one of the oddest mass brawl stories I've come across...Albanians (what the hell are they doing in these camps anyway) recently introduced a fee all other nationalities had to pay for using sanitary facilities in a German refugee camp. Syrians did not take too kindly to this, leading to a fight that had to be brought to an end by the police.

http://www.mopo.de/polizei/wilhelmsburg-massenschlaegerei--im-fluechtlingslager,7730198,32098958.html?dmcid=sm_tw

[Tender Branson]

Handgun and rifle sales in Austria have "exploded" in recent weeks, as Austrians are storming gun shops accross the country during this asylum crisis.

After 18 years of falling handgun/rifle permits, Austrians have registered 60.000 new weapons in the past months alone and gun shop owners report record sales. Also, women are buying pepper spray and all kinds of defense stuff ...



http://www.tt.com/home/10581135-91/privater-waffenkauf-explodiert-in-tirol.csp

http://www.heute.at/news/oesterreich/art23655,1217301

...

Ugh, disgusting that this happens now. But I have warned you guys about these consequences of this silly uncontrolled mass immigration.

[DavidB.]

Crosspost from my Dutch politics thread:

Last night, a sickening coordinated attack on an emergency accommodation facility for asylum seekers has been perpetrated in Woerden (in the province of Utrecht). The facility, housing 148 people (amongst whom 51 children), has been attacked by a group of twenty people (possibly FC Utrecht hooligans), who hurled heavy firework bombs (like nitrates) to the asylum seekers, leading to extreme panic and sometimes to traumatizing experiences considering the fact that many people had fled war zones.

Mayor Victor Molkenboer (PvdA) stated that the government doesn't seem to have a plan to coordinate the situation and that there isn't a real debate on the migrant crisis, only people voicing their opinions in a loud way. He said "this could have happened everywhere" and that he isn't surprised about it: "the debate on the refugee problem has been heading in the wrong direction", leading to a "horrifying atmosphere." Deputy immigration minister Klaas Dijkhoff (VVD) comdemned the attack, stating he was horrified: "This violence is unacceptable. The perpetrators need to be punished. Refugees and neighborhood residents need to be safe." Prime Minister Mark Rutte visited the asylum seekers today, to buck them up and to show solidarity.

[dead0man]

I'm on the side of those concerned about the number of immigrants coming in, but that's funking disgusting.

[DavidB.]

I'm on the side of those concerned about the number of immigrants coming in, but that's funking disgusting.

Exactly.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern State Police reports that there has been no noticable increase in the crime rate due to the recent influx of refugees, pointing out that rumours about refugee-related crimes are often fabricated and spread on the Internet. Occasional brawls between asylum seekers are described as largely being "under control".

At the same time, they also report that "politically motivated felonies" against asylum-seeker homes have increased by 200% (compared to 2014).

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/Polizei-widerspricht-Geruechten-um-Fluechtlingskriminalitaet,fluechtlinge4178.html

[politicus]

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern State Police reports that there has been no noticable increase in the crime rate due to the recent influx of refugees, pointing out that rumours about refugee-related crimes are often fabricated and spread on the Internet. Occasional brawls between asylum seekers are described as largely being "under control".

At the same time, they also report that "politically motivated felonies" against asylum-seeker homes have increased by 200% (compared to 2014).

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/Polizei-widerspricht-Geruechten-um-Fluechtlingskriminalitaet,fluechtlinge4178.html

I think at least internationally the impression of high crime rates and big brawls are based on interviews with German police officers and police union reps more than internet rumors or individual "stories".

[Middle-aged Europe]

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern State Police reports that there has been no noticable increase in the crime rate due to the recent influx of refugees, pointing out that rumours about refugee-related crimes are often fabricated and spread on the Internet. Occasional brawls between asylum seekers are described as largely being "under control".

At the same time, they also report that "politically motivated felonies" against asylum-seeker homes have increased by 200% (compared to 2014).

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/Polizei-widerspricht-Geruechten-um-Fluechtlingskriminalitaet,fluechtlinge4178.html

I think at least internationally the impression of high crime rates and big brawls are based on interviews with German police officers and police union reps more than internet rumors or individual "stories".

So?

[politicus]

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern State Police reports that there has been no noticable increase in the crime rate due to the recent influx of refugees, pointing out that rumours about refugee-related crimes are often fabricated and spread on the Internet. Occasional brawls between asylum seekers are described as largely being "under control".

At the same time, they also report that "politically motivated felonies" against asylum-seeker homes have increased by 200% (compared to 2014).

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/Polizei-widerspricht-Geruechten-um-Fluechtlingskriminalitaet,fluechtlinge4178.html

I think at least internationally the impression of high crime rates and big brawls are based on interviews with German police officers and police union reps more than internet rumors or individual "stories".

So?

Well, firstly it means that this will be less relevant in changing the narrative about the situation and secondly that there seems to be a discrepancy between what official statistics say and what policemen  experience. It could also be that the ones being interviewed are disproportionally right wingers, but I am somewhat skeptical about that (although some are). On that topic Rainer Wendt from Deutsche Polizeigewerkschaft seems to have right wing contacts (though New Right, not far-right). Do you know more about his political connections?

As I understand it crimes against other asylum seekers inside the camps is the big problem with sexual assaults on women and children, violence and threats against minorities/rival groups etc, various forms of exploitation and extortion. Most of it going unreported. Not so much crimes against Germans.

[politicus]

In an opinion piece in Der Spiegel SPD chairman Sigmar Gabriel and Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier say that Germany can not "permanently absorbe and integrate more than a mio. refugees" and needs to take steps to reduce the incoming numbers.

[Beezer]

If only people like Steinmeier and Gabriel could take action and introduce measures to curtail migration...oh wait.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern State Police reports that there has been no noticable increase in the crime rate due to the recent influx of refugees, pointing out that rumours about refugee-related crimes are often fabricated and spread on the Internet. Occasional brawls between asylum seekers are described as largely being "under control".

At the same time, they also report that "politically motivated felonies" against asylum-seeker homes have increased by 200% (compared to 2014).

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/Polizei-widerspricht-Geruechten-um-Fluechtlingskriminalitaet,fluechtlinge4178.html

I think at least internationally the impression of high crime rates and big brawls are based on interviews with German police officers and police union reps more than internet rumors or individual "stories".

So?

Well, firstly it means that this will be less relevant in changing the narrative about the situation and secondly that there seems to be a discrepancy between what official statistics say and what policemen  experience. It could also be that the ones being interviewed are disproportionally right wingers, but I am somewhat skeptical about that (although some are). On that topic Rainer Wendt from Deutsche Polizeigewerkschaft seems to have right wing contacts (though New Right, not far-right). Do you know more about his political connections?

As I understand it crimes against other asylum seekers inside the camps is the big problem with sexual assaults on women and children, violence and threats against minorities/rival groups etc, various forms of exploitation and extortion. Most of it going unreported. Not so much crimes against Germans.

I would still treat interviews with policemen as anecdotal evidence. You say you doubt that the interviewed policemen are disproportionally right wingers. What's your basis for that statement?

Rainer Wendt is a CDU member and one from the party's right wing it seems. I guess he has a lot of beef with his party chairwoman right now, but that's his problem. Today the police union criticized yesterday's episode of the popular Tatort police procedural show which was basically a fictionalized version of a real-life case of a refugee burning to death in a police cell back in 2005. I guess they can't stand negative portrayals of the police in TV shows either...

I'm aware of the reports regarding sexual results in asylum seeker homes, but given that any negative refugee-related reports seem to get blown way out of proportion I'm not sure what to do with that information.

If we go by anecdotal evidence, a colleague of mine has sheltered Syrian refugees at his home as does someone who is known by someone I know, and by that account they are really nice people. So, what now?

You also ignored the reported 200% increase in crimes committed against asylum-seeker homes btw.

[politicus]

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern State Police reports that there has been no noticable increase in the crime rate due to the recent influx of refugees, pointing out that rumours about refugee-related crimes are often fabricated and spread on the Internet. Occasional brawls between asylum seekers are described as largely being "under control".

At the same time, they also report that "politically motivated felonies" against asylum-seeker homes have increased by 200% (compared to 2014).

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/Polizei-widerspricht-Geruechten-um-Fluechtlingskriminalitaet,fluechtlinge4178.html

I think at least internationally the impression of high crime rates and big brawls are based on interviews with German police officers and police union reps more than internet rumors or individual "stories".

So?

Well, firstly it means that this will be less relevant in changing the narrative about the situation and secondly that there seems to be a discrepancy between what official statistics say and what policemen  experience. It could also be that the ones being interviewed are disproportionally right wingers, but I am somewhat skeptical about that (although some are). On that topic Rainer Wendt from Deutsche Polizeigewerkschaft seems to have right wing contacts (though New Right, not far-right). Do you know more about his political connections?

As I understand it crimes against other asylum seekers inside the camps is the big problem with sexual assaults on women and children, violence and threats against minorities/rival groups etc, various forms of exploitation and extortion. Most of it going unreported. Not so much crimes against Germans.

I would still treat interviews with policemen as anecdotal evidence. You say you doubt that the interviewed policemen are disproportionally right wingers. What's your basis for that statement?

Rainer Wendt is a CDU member and one from the party's right wing it seems. I guess he has a lot of beef with his party chairwoman right now, but that's his problem. Today the police union criticized yesterday's episode of the popular Tatort police procedural show which was basically a fictionalized version of a real-life case of a refugee burning to death in a police cell back in 2005. I guess they can't stand negative portrayals of the police in TV shows either...

I'm aware of the reports regarding sexual reassaults in asylum seeker homes, but given that any negative refugee-related reports seem to get blown way out of proportion I'm not sure what to do with that information.

Thanks for the info on Wendt. How does German policemen generally vote? (high SocDem share here, but I would expect German police officers to be more right wing - but that may be a prejudice).

Saying that the interviewed policemen are disproportionally right wingers just seems like an easy excuse to dismiss what they are saying, that is all. Given that conditions are terrible in refugee camps in the Middle East and Africa it seems most plausible that many of the problems are the same in the European countries that take the most, even with our lower numbers we have lots of harassment of gays, women, Christians and "heretics" as well.

I guess it depends what you are most skeptical about: statistics or opinions from people "on the ground". When it comes to crime I am deeply suspicious of official statistics (except for murder and very severe violence), especially when relating to vulnerable groups with a high incentive not to report . But of course you need a fairly large and broad based sample of anecdotal evidence to get closer to the truth than the statistics.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Stay classy, Pegida!

[DavidB.]

400 Syrian and Iraqi asylum seekers will temporarily stay in an empty office building in the only remotely Jewish neighborhood in the Netherlands which is situated in Amstelveen, an Amsterdam suburb. Together with Amsterdam South, the adjacent area, it is the only place in the Netherlands where one will see Jews who dress "traditionally": pretty much all of Dutch Jewish life happens there. All of this doesn't seem like an extremely good idea to me, given the already problematic situation regarding security of the Jewish community, and that's what Ron Eisenmann, leader of the VVD in the district of Amsterdam South, thought as well, voicing his strong opinion of this. However, since the housing facility is located in the municipality of Amstelveen, Eisenmann's views mean nothing in terms of policy. Meanwhile, some left-wing people who don't live in this area themselves go bananas over the fact that some Jews are concerned about their security, making all kinds of insane comparisons. The VNL parliamentary group will ask the responsible minister questions about this unfortunate situation.

[trigger warning: rant starts here] To me, it seems like there are many politicians who live in some sort of a dream world while not having to live with the very ugly consequences. On the basis of Dutch history one could argue that the government has a special responsibility to protect the remnants of the once numerous Jewish community, but apparently this argument doesn't seem to be worth anything anymore in the eyes of many. People simply don't give a fyck if something happens, or they'll act like it was totally unexpected. [/end rant]