Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread
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Author Topic: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread  (Read 126451 times)
politicus
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« Reply #700 on: October 18, 2015, 04:54:59 AM »

Sorry if I don't sympathize too much with the plight of people who feel entitled to their privileges just because they were born in a certain place and have a certain religion/skin color, and want to deny those privileges to the rest of the world because muh homeland. I, as any decent person, stand with the unprivileged and the downtrodden.

Spreading privileges should come through raising living standards around the world via free trade combined with economic aid for poverty alleviation. Not by massive population swops between continents. The population increase in Africa in the next 35 years will be twice the current population of the EU. There is no way you can solve that by letting those people move to Europe. It isn't a viable solution and pretending it is hurts more people than it benefits. A main reason why there are more refugees than ever before is that there are simply more people in the world than ever before and the societies with the highest population growth are the most unstable (not unrelated of course). The easier it is to get to the West the more will try so you get a never ending stream of migrants.

While I am all for helping the under privileged and downtrodden undermining well functioning societies to do it is just wrong and basically an elitist project. The European working class will get the bad consequences in the form of rising crime, culture clashes, transferred ethnic and religious conflicts, lower minimum wage, higher taxes, housing shortage and less public welfare, while the corporate elite gets cheap labour and a tool for breaking up the welfare state due to "lack of altruism" among tax payers. The elite can choose their own level of taxation and live comfortably in gated communities and country estates. Not so for the rest.

You can help 30-40 refugee families in a year in most of sub-Saharan Africa for the cost it takes to help one refugee in Scandinavia (I think this calculus would be more or less the same for Austria and Germany). Why is it the solidary solution to focus on the ones that somehow can pay a trafficker to get to the West? Why are they the ones we should help? And why use funds to help a lucky few rater than help the masses? A rational and fair refugee policy would pick the most vulnerable groups for resettlement in the West (gays, religious minorities, disabled, single women etc.) and use funds for helping the rest where they are. But this requires a stop for spontaneous asylum seeking in Europe. It is ironic that the left prefers the individualistic "every man for himself" and "you get what you can pay for" approach when it comes to refugees. While I know you would say everyone should be allowed in that just isn't economically or practically feasible, so this de facto becomes a purchasing power based selection.

While we obviously fundamentally disagree about the importance of "muh country" and a people's right to a homeland and your relegation of national identity to religion/skin colour is spurious, I have disregarded those things in the above because a discussion of them will lead nowhere productive.

We agree that the West has been too selfish and not done enough to solve this crisis (although that goes for East Asia and other wealthy regions as well), but our response to this should not be to pursue a course that will undermine social cohesion and our welfare states, but to allocate more resources to help refugees near their country of origin, create safe zones, stabilize failed states and promote growth in Africa and the refugee receiving countries in the Middle East.

It is the structural and cumulative nature of this crisis that is crucial. If it was just about Syria I might agree that we should just distribute the refugees among the rich countries (although still with some scrutinizing because of the security risk posed by extremists), but the experts say this is likely the "new normal" and we need to act accordingly.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #701 on: October 18, 2015, 05:25:22 AM »

Sorry if I don't sympathize too much with the plight of people who feel entitled to their privileges just because they were born in a certain place and have a certain religion/skin color, and want to deny those privileges to the rest of the world because muh homeland.

They are entitled to these privileges because they worked hard to establish these welfare systems, contrary to the millions who are now lining up at the border and want to enjoy these goodies too.

I, as any decent person, stand with the unprivileged and the downtrodden.

Me too, but I want them solved in the countries of origin of these people - where they belong.

If we are letting them in by the millions, we not only have to try and solve their problems at home, but they also bring their problems with them to us and we eventually have to solve their problems here as well.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #702 on: October 18, 2015, 05:57:27 AM »
« Edited: October 18, 2015, 06:10:27 AM by Old Europe »

There are always going to be crazy people. I think we should wait before somehow laying the blame at the feet of everyone critical of Merkel's migrant policies. Of course you just know the mainstream parties will pounce on this and declare that all those not in favor of the government's position have blood on their hands.

Well, judging from what you can read in respective blogs, Internet forums and Facebook groups there are huge portions of the Pegida/pro-AfD scene which use a totally overblown, martial rethoric in their discussions. They talk about how Merkel committed "high treason" with her immigration policies and that Germans have a "right to resist" against that in accordance with Article 20, Section 4 of the constitution and so on. And it's always possible, if not likely, that someone will take that crap a little too serious at some point. The gallows at the Pegida rally in Dresden was the first step, this is the next. The next level will probably letter bombs to party headquarters or something like that.

Meh, how's this any different from what you will encounter on left wing sites and their rhetoric towards governmental/state institutions? Obviously an attack like this is despicable but blaming a party like the AfD for the actions of a single lunatic is completely ridiculous.

Again, this is a "two wrongs make a right" fallacy.

Got a better argument than that?
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #703 on: October 18, 2015, 06:00:59 AM »

@Old Europe: Population changes are de facto irreversible and given the number of asylum seekers is very large (+ will result in family reunifications) and is unlikely to go down in the foreseeable future (at least according to UNHCR) it is an usual situation, especially with the next election so far out.

The question is if there is a point beyond which it simply isn't fair to consider something a normal political decision? And if you are approaching that point?

Germany doesn't really have constitutional methods for dealing with this situation (other than just pretending it is a normal situation).

A Volksbefragung (people's inquiry) is the only referendum option, and just non-binding plebiscite. So using it would rely on politicians being willing to follow a result.

The German constitution only allows early elections after a vote of no confidence or inability to form a majority government. So not really an option.

Given that there isn't really any realistic options for getting to vote on this monumental decision some strong reaction is unavoidable from the opponents. So far it has actually been milder than one would have expected (Germans are a remarkably disciplined bunch - and so are Swedes). You could hope civil disobedience will be the weapon of choice rather than violence, but continued low level violence with arson against refugee facilities and some direct attacks seems likely.

You would have had attacks from hardcore racists anyway, but the frustration of being unable to influence this is bound to increase the level of violence.

(I will emphasize that what makes it monumental is the cumulated effect of a continued migration - if one believes it is a temporary crisis it becomes a more "normal" crisis, but that seems unrealistic.)

I don't see the necessity for a referendum.

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Beezer
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« Reply #704 on: October 18, 2015, 07:25:23 AM »
« Edited: October 18, 2015, 07:30:14 AM by Beezer »

How come leftists never realize that shipping millions of people into the developed world isn't going to "share the privileges" but only make things far worse for many people? It's completely self-defeating anyway since an expansive welfare state only really works in largely homogeneous (and small) nations. So the more foreigners they bring in, the smaller support for the welfare state is going to be.

But hey, it's not like reality has ever affected left-wing social and economic policies. If it did, they'd be the biggest proponents of capitalism which has lifted more people out of poverty than socialism ever will.
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Beezer
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« Reply #705 on: October 18, 2015, 07:28:38 AM »

Again, this is a "two wrongs make a right" fallacy.

Got a better argument than that?

This discussion would be more fruitful if you bothered reading some of my points. I am not making the case that "two wrongs make a right", I am simply stating "let's recognize that there are two wrongs to begin with while the political establishment and mainstream media only see one wrong, giving the left a free pass on everything from making  threats against the state to beating up policemen to threatening political opponents." Seriously, both the Young Greens and Jusos brag about attacking AfD-stands in the street and even going to the homes of AfD candidates. Does anybody give a crap about that? Nope.
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Beezer
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« Reply #706 on: October 18, 2015, 01:28:02 PM »

AfD-stand in Frankfurt attacked. Wonder if this will cause national headlines. LOL, who am I kidding.

http://www.fr-online.de/frankfurt/afd-frankfurt-afd-stand-attackiert---zwei-verletzte,1472798,32191852.html
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #707 on: October 18, 2015, 04:17:49 PM »

The new European left-winger has given up on the white working class and instead belittles them and their lifestyle, either doesn't really care about maintaining the welfare state or simply believes things about the productivity of non-Western immigrants that are not true, and thinks solidarity based on traditional nation-state patterns is racist and should be eradicated, just as the nation-state itself should be eradicated.

You clearly haven't been paying attention to my posts if you believe that applies to me.

First off, I care about the Welfare State probably more than about 90% of people here, and certainly more than Tender, who isn't a left-winger in any meaningful sense of the word (whether "old" or "new").

Second, please cite any post where I said anything about the "White working class". I don't know why you assume that my condemnation of racism are in anyway related to that, but I've got news for you: there are plenty of racists among the middle and upper classes. In fact, this forum is a good demonstration of that. If anything, the populist right's fetishization of the "White working class" is quite telling in its implicit exclusion of the nonwhite working class. Why is the first more deserving of care and support than the latter?


They are entitled to these privileges because they worked hard to establish these welfare systems, contrary to the millions who are now lining up at the border and want to enjoy these goodies too.

Oh, I see, so Middle Easterners are just lazy freeloaders and that's why their countries don't look like Austria. Thanks for proving my point about racism.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #708 on: October 18, 2015, 04:28:25 PM »

Oh, I see, so Middle Easterners are just lazy freeloaders and that's why their countries don't look like Austria. Thanks for proving my point about racism.

Part of the reason, the main reason, Austria is a nice place to live and Syria is a bad place to live IS the people who live there. What other reason would it be?
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #709 on: October 18, 2015, 04:30:44 PM »

Also (and this applies to Latin American/African immigration more than Syria), if poor people from the third world are such an economic boon for developed countries, why are their countries of origin so poor that they have to flee?
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dead0man
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« Reply #710 on: October 18, 2015, 04:40:25 PM »

Also (and this applies to Latin American/African immigration more than Syria), if poor people from the third world are such an economic boon for developed countries, why are their countries of origin so poor that they have to flee?
because white people of course

Sometimes Google translate isn't horrible.....this isn't one of those times
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #711 on: October 18, 2015, 04:44:13 PM »

Also (and this applies to Latin American/African immigration more than Syria), if poor people from the third world are such an economic boon for developed countries, why are their countries of origin so poor that they have to flee?
because white people of course

No, clearly it's the fault of ordinary folks who have been brutally murdered and/or left starving for the past decades or so. If only they pulled themselves by their bootstraps like the good, deserving Whites, every problem in their countries would fix themselves!
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dead0man
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« Reply #712 on: October 18, 2015, 05:02:18 PM »

Sarcasm before dinner?  You'll get a tummy ache.
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Foucaulf
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« Reply #713 on: October 18, 2015, 05:41:39 PM »

In which I tersely respond to talking points:

Spreading privileges should come through raising living standards around the world via free trade combined with economic aid for poverty alleviation. Not by massive population swops between continents.
Why free trade only for capital but not for labour?

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Who says every African and Middle Eastern resident wants to migrate to Europe? But of course you believe in a mechanism for this:
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In which case the usual arguments delivered by others, accusing you of an "eco-fascist," apply.

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How? Through the vast sums of remittances sent in recent times - $400 to $500 billion - we have evidence that labour migration is a market mechanism for distributing wealth. Do you have anything better?

It's completely self-defeating anyway since an expansive welfare state only really works in largely homogeneous (and small) nations. So the more foreigners they bring in, the smaller support for the welfare state is going to be.
Why? Through which mechanism?

Also (and this applies to Latin American/African immigration more than Syria), if poor people from the third world are such an economic boon for developed countries, why are their countries of origin so poor that they have to flee?
...Bad political institutions? Surely you could have thought that one up.


The problem I have with economic arguments used by people in this thread is that they are not serious nor representative. Evidence is that people oppose immigration to the extent that they change their living environment and institutions (see Card/Dustmann/Preston 2012, Hainmueller 2014). In that sense the European sentiment right now is very similar to American white flight from major cities in the 50s to the 70s, except Europe's density means mobility is less feasible.

In my opinion only DavidB in this thread was honest about why he fears immigrants: fear of being stabbed by an Arab walking down the sidewalk. Others could learn from him.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #714 on: October 18, 2015, 06:15:39 PM »

In my opinion only DavidB in this thread was honest about why he fears immigrants: fear of being stabbed by an Arab walking down the sidewalk. Others could learn from him.
wut. I don't "fear immigrants" and never said so. One part of my family consists of immigrants. My mother is considered "allochthonous" by the Dutch government (an official term in this country). It would be rather ridiculous to fear my family, my Polish neighbors, my Moroccan barber, the guy from the Kurdish mini market, some of the people in my synagogue. I also think it's cheap to dismiss people's legitimate sentiments regarding the inevitable negative consequences of mass immigration as "fear".

Sure, if I walk around with a kippa in my neighborhood I wouldn't feel entirely safe - I don't really expect violence, but I feel self-aware all the time, people are staring and something might happen, so that's why I wear a cap if I do that -- and sure, that's not because of Dutch people (or the Polish neighbor), but I'd never state that I'd "fear" "immigrants", or even "Arab immigrants", which is way too generalizing a statement. As long as people on the street don't see I'm Jewish, I don't think it's even remotely likely anything will happen to me.

My opposition to mass immigration from Muslim countries stems from the fact that it would add to tensions that are currently problematic enough for society to deal with (tensions which are specific to immigration from Muslim countries), that it would influence the demographic balance whereas I think people have a right to their own nation state and mass immigration from Muslim countries contributes to societal (and in the long run political) instability, and that it would endanger my community in the present and in the future.
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Foucaulf
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« Reply #715 on: October 18, 2015, 06:35:34 PM »

It would be rather ridiculous to fear my family, my Polish neighbors, my Moroccan barber, the guy from the Kurdish mini market, some of the people in my synagogue. I also think it's cheap to dismiss people's legitimate sentiments regarding the inevitable negative consequences of mass immigration as "fear".

Point taken, though who says fear isn't legitimate? In fact, scrolling down a paragraph:

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What causes the tensions and instability over which you are concerned? Acts of demonstration, threatening or of violence. What motivates individuals to commit those acts? Fear.

Though you yourself may not be walking down the streets in terror (which is how it should be), I still suspect you would rather listen to the narrative spun by those who live in fear of immigrants than any other narrative, notably those from immigrants themselves.
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politicus
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« Reply #716 on: October 18, 2015, 06:39:55 PM »

@Old Europe: Population changes are de facto irreversible and given the number of asylum seekers is very large (+ will result in family reunifications) and is unlikely to go down in the foreseeable future (at least according to UNHCR) it is an usual situation, especially with the next election so far out.

The question is if there is a point beyond which it simply isn't fair to consider something a normal political decision? And if you are approaching that point?

Germany doesn't really have constitutional methods for dealing with this situation (other than just pretending it is a normal situation).

A Volksbefragung (people's inquiry) is the only referendum option, and just non-binding plebiscite. So using it would rely on politicians being willing to follow a result.

The German constitution only allows early elections after a vote of no confidence or inability to form a majority government. So not really an option.

Given that there isn't really any realistic options for getting to vote on this monumental decision some strong reaction is unavoidable from the opponents. So far it has actually been milder than one would have expected (Germans are a remarkably disciplined bunch - and so are Swedes). You could hope civil disobedience will be the weapon of choice rather than violence, but continued low level violence with arson against refugee facilities and some direct attacks seems likely.

You would have had attacks from hardcore racists anyway, but the frustration of being unable to influence this is bound to increase the level of violence.

(I will emphasize that what makes it monumental is the cumulated effect of a continued migration - if one believes it is a temporary crisis it becomes a more "normal" crisis, but that seems unrealistic.)

I don't see the necessity for a referendum.


Well, didn't figure you would, but the narrative that Merkel is ignoring "the will of the people" and that this allows "extraordinary measures" will continue otherwise.
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politicus
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« Reply #717 on: October 18, 2015, 06:54:02 PM »

They are entitled to these privileges because they worked hard to establish these welfare systems, contrary to the millions who are now lining up at the border and want to enjoy these goodies too.

Oh, I see, so Middle Easterners are just lazy freeloaders and that's why their countries don't look like Austria. Thanks for proving my point about racism.

Welfare states are a form of collective insurance. You pay into them with your taxes when you are working and you (or your children) can use them when studying, sick, unemployed, retired etc. It does create bad will when people who haven't paid the "insurance premium" gets ahead in the queue (so to speak) to fx housing or hospital treatment or too many non-payers use the systems and fx hospital waiting lists go up. You may find this selfish, but its a natural sentiment.

Tender didn't say anything about why most Middle Eastern countries malfunction (which is a complex issue).
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ingemann
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« Reply #718 on: October 18, 2015, 07:11:38 PM »

^ This is basically the debate between the old European left-winger and the new European left-winger.

The old European left-winger worked for the well-being of his people, attempted to uplift the working class, and introduced a welfare system based on solidarity in a homogeneous society.

The new European left-winger has given up on the white working class and instead belittles them and their lifestyle, either doesn't really care about maintaining the welfare state or simply believes things about the productivity of non-Western immigrants that are not true, and thinks solidarity based on traditional nation-state patterns is racist and should be eradicated, just as the nation-state itself should be eradicated.

I disagree Tender is not a traditional left winger, he's a communitarian with a green focus. As for Antonio his kind have existed forever, he's at best just another student that never really think his own ideology through, but close his eyes and ignore the problems it creates, and people who disagree with him is simply morons, racists and plain evil.

Of course he doesn't belong to the liberal (as in the market sense) parasites who pretend they're on the left, while they do their best to break the national state and the social security net down. He's just a useful idiot for them.
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ag
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« Reply #719 on: October 18, 2015, 09:02:43 PM »

Decided to check out how things are going here. Truly a profound and measured discussion of pertinent issues it is. I hope, the participants are delighted with themselves and each other.

No, I am not planning to "hijack" this thread with any appeals to human morality. I think it is far too late for that. Enjoy.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #720 on: October 18, 2015, 09:51:40 PM »

They are entitled to these privileges because they worked hard to establish these welfare systems, contrary to the millions who are now lining up at the border and want to enjoy these goodies too.

Oh, I see, so Middle Easterners are just lazy freeloaders and that's why their countries don't look like Austria. Thanks for proving my point about racism.

Welfare states are a form of collective insurance. You pay into them with your taxes when you are working and you (or your children) can use them when studying, sick, unemployed, retired etc. It does create bad will when people who haven't paid the "insurance premium" gets ahead in the queue (so to speak) to fx housing or hospital treatment or too many non-payers use the systems and fx hospital waiting lists go up. You may find this selfish, but its a natural sentiment.

Tender didn't say anything about why most Middle Eastern countries malfunction (which is a complex issue).

Non-citizens generally pay taxes in the countries they reside in, and that goes for migrants and refugees as well. Why shouldn't they get access to the same services and benefits other taxpayers receive?
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politicus
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« Reply #721 on: October 18, 2015, 10:18:56 PM »

They are entitled to these privileges because they worked hard to establish these welfare systems, contrary to the millions who are now lining up at the border and want to enjoy these goodies too.

Oh, I see, so Middle Easterners are just lazy freeloaders and that's why their countries don't look like Austria. Thanks for proving my point about racism.

Welfare states are a form of collective insurance. You pay into them with your taxes when you are working and you (or your children) can use them when studying, sick, unemployed, retired etc. It does create bad will when people who haven't paid the "insurance premium" gets ahead in the queue (so to speak) to fx housing or hospital treatment or too many non-payers use the systems and fx hospital waiting lists go up. You may find this selfish, but its a natural sentiment.

Tender didn't say anything about why most Middle Eastern countries malfunction (which is a complex issue).

Non-citizens generally pay taxes in the countries they reside in, and that goes for migrants and refugees as well. Why shouldn't they get access to the same services and benefits other taxpayers receive?

Well, they pay taxes when and if they enter the labour market. They haven't done so on arrival. Plus their labour market participation is low in many countries - especially those with high minimum wages, which are the same ones that have an extensive welfare state.

All I am saying is that this is a natural and unavoidable sentiment - you need an altruistic view of the world not to see it that way. Most people haven't got that, or only to a certain extent.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #722 on: October 18, 2015, 10:25:51 PM »

They are entitled to these privileges because they worked hard to establish these welfare systems, contrary to the millions who are now lining up at the border and want to enjoy these goodies too.

Oh, I see, so Middle Easterners are just lazy freeloaders and that's why their countries don't look like Austria. Thanks for proving my point about racism.

Welfare states are a form of collective insurance. You pay into them with your taxes when you are working and you (or your children) can use them when studying, sick, unemployed, retired etc. It does create bad will when people who haven't paid the "insurance premium" gets ahead in the queue (so to speak) to fx housing or hospital treatment or too many non-payers use the systems and fx hospital waiting lists go up. You may find this selfish, but its a natural sentiment.

Tender didn't say anything about why most Middle Eastern countries malfunction (which is a complex issue).

Non-citizens generally pay taxes in the countries they reside in, and that goes for migrants and refugees as well. Why shouldn't they get access to the same services and benefits other taxpayers receive?

Well, they pay taxes when and if they enter the labour market. They haven't done so on arrival. Plus their labour market participation is low in many countries - especially those with high minimum wages, which are the same ones that have an extensive welfare state.

Most unemployed people, whether native or immigrant, are looking for jobs. If they don't get them, that's probably due to economic circumstances that can be reversed through appropriate stimulus policies. But either way, the native unemployed person is in the same situation as the immigrant one. Why would you blame the latter more than the former?
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« Reply #723 on: October 18, 2015, 11:22:06 PM »

Do you think we should have two threads, one for news on the crisis and the other to bicker about economic migration?
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politicus
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« Reply #724 on: October 19, 2015, 04:12:15 AM »

Do you think we should have two threads, one for news on the crisis and the other to bicker about economic migration?

No, "bickering" comes and goes in the thread. It is primarily a news thread - once in a while someone tries to discuss something and then we once again find out we can't discuss this issue and things move along.
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