Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[Simfan34]

No, it's interesting.

[rob in cal]

    I'm fascinated in the idea of the Russian immigrant community in Germany taking a role in anti-migrant protest.  This should be exciting to those in Germany who hope that immigrants in general start integrating into the general German population, for here we see a case of an immigrant group taking an active role in German civic life, and taking a mainstream political stance (if the AFD, CSU and conservative wing of CDU is mainstream that is). 

[Middle-aged Europe]

   I'm fascinated in the idea of the Russian immigrant community in Germany taking a role in anti-migrant protest.  This should be exciting to those in Germany who hope that immigrants in general start integrating into the general German population, for here we see a case of an immigrant group taking an active role in German civic life, and taking a mainstream political stance (if the AFD, CSU and conservative wing of CDU is mainstream that is).  

It's not really a sign of integration when the German authorities repeatedly stress that this rape didn't occur at all, the Russian government accuse the German authorities of covering up that rape and the migrant group chooses the swallow the Russian propaganda.

And no, the AfD ain't mainstream.

[Simfan34]

If the AfD is now mainstream, then the CDU has failed at the whole "no established party to the right of CDU/CSU" thing.

[Middle-aged Europe]

AfD got its own problems now since it started a debate whether it is legal to shoot children refugees and if not, whether it is at least legal to shoot their mothers.

Heard some rumours that AfD deputy chairman Alexander Gauland may launch a coup against AfD chairwoman Frauke Petry over this.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35462698

Jordan is starting to crack (or if you're cynical, Abdullah knows that the Kingdom can get money from the desperate West if he promises to stop migrants leaving)

[Omega21]

oe24.at/oesterreich/chronik/wien/Fluechtlings-Keilerei-in-Wiener-McDonald-s-VIDEO/222770310

Cultural enrichment at it's finest.

[Beezer]

7 guys, including 5 migrants, gang rape 17 year old girl in Belgium.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6910086/Five-migrants-among-7-young-men-who-laughed-danced-and-sang-in-Arabic-as-they-gang-raped-unconscious-girl-of-17.html

[dead0man]

Good thing she didn't defend herself or she could really be in trouble.

[Tender Branson]

Female student from Colorado, USA (25) working as an AuPair in Vienna killed by an asylum seeker from Gambia (Africa).

Asylum seeker arrested in Switzerland, where he fled to.

http://wien.orf.at/news/stories/2756085

Apparently, the woman allowed the asylum seeker to sleep in her apartment for a few days to shield him from deportation. Apparently, the 2 had sex (voluntarily/involuntarily, nobody knows) and the woman was found strangled to death half-naked in her bed by firefighters and police who opened her apartment after her employer called authorities after she didn't appear at work for a few days.

[Tender Branson]

"Make rape legal" rally in Vienna banned by the police & city.

http://www.vienna.at/wirbel-um-pro-vergewaltigungs-demo-beim-wiener-museumsquartier/4613595

[Omega21]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3433325/British-teenager-gang-raped-Moroccan-men-dragged-car-Spain.html?ito=social-facebook

Girl gang raped by Moroccan refugees.

Edit:

Iraqi refugee raped 10 year old boy in Wien because "he didn't have sex for a long time"

http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/chronik/Fluechtling-vergewaltigt-Zehnjaehrigen-Iraker-gestaendig/222955766

[Tender Branson]

The AfD president said that German police should shoot at refugees at the Germany-Austrian border.

YouGov poll:

29% support using weapons/guns to stop illegals from entering Germany
57% are opposed
14% are undecided

http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/Politik/d/8030288/jeder-vierte-wuerde-auf-fluechtlinge-schiessen-lassen.html

[dead0man]

So when are Ag and Tony going to come back and call everybody racists again?  I miss that.

[Middle-aged Europe]

So when are Ag and Tony going to come back and call everybody racists again?  I miss that.

I can do that for you. No problem.

According to the annual crime report of Germany's Federal Criminal Police Office there were 1.029 cases of politically motivated violent crimes (the majority of which being assaults and battery) perpetrated by right-wing extremists in the year 2014, an increase by 22.9% compared to 2013.

Assmuming that the rate of increase stayed the same we're talking about maybe 1.250 cases for 2015. That's roughly 3.5 politically motivated violent crimes perpetrated by right-wing extremists each day. Which means that statistically speaking there have must have been about 20 cases of violence comitted by right-wing extremists against other people since the beginning of this week (February 1) in Germany.

Some examples from this week include:

http://www.lvz.de/Mitteldeutschland/Polizeiticker-Mitteldeutschland/Angriff-mit-Messer-auf-Asylbewerber-in-Regis-Breitingen

http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/50152/3243491

http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/krefeld/beleidigungen-in-der-regionalbahn-aelteres-ehepaar-bedroht-mutter-und-kind-aid-1.5739160

In addition, there was a case of a 21-year-old woman from Thuringia who admitted that her story of being raped by a group of asylum seekers had been completely fabricated:

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/vergewaltigung-von-fluechtlingen-von-21-jaehriger-erfunden-a-1075977.html

So, Omega21, Beezer, and Tender Branson apparently had both the time and the inclination to post five cases of supposed crimes committed by immigrants in Europe. But they weren't able (or willing) to post at least one of the other cases I just mentioned, be it just to ensure a more balanced view of the situation.

So, my question to you, dead0man, would be: Why do you think is this the case?

[Omega21]

So when are Ag and Tony going to come back and call everybody racists again?  I miss that.

I can do that for you. No problem.

According to the annual crime report of Germany's Federal Criminal Police Office there were 1.029 cases of politically motivated violent crimes (the majority of which being assaults and battery) perpetrated by right-wing extremists in the year 2014, an increase by 22.9% compared to 2013.

Assmuming that the rate of increase stayed the same we're talking about maybe 1.250 cases for 2015. That's roughly 3.5 politically motivated violent crimes perpetrated by right-wing extremists each day. Which means that statistically speaking there have must have been about 20 cases of violence comitted by right-wing extremists against other people since the beginning of this week (February 1) in Germany.

Some examples from this week include:

http://www.lvz.de/Mitteldeutschland/Polizeiticker-Mitteldeutschland/Angriff-mit-Messer-auf-Asylbewerber-in-Regis-Breitingen

http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/50152/3243491

http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/krefeld/beleidigungen-in-der-regionalbahn-aelteres-ehepaar-bedroht-mutter-und-kind-aid-1.5739160

In addition, there was a case of a 21-year-old woman from Thuringia who admitted that her story of being raped by a group of asylum seekers had been completely fabricated:

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/vergewaltigung-von-fluechtlingen-von-21-jaehriger-erfunden-a-1075977.html

So, Omega21, Beezer, and Tender Branson apparently had both the time and the inclination to post five cases of supposed crimes committed by immigrants in Europe. But they weren't able (or willing) to post at least one of the other cases I just mentioned, be it just to ensure a more balanced view of the situation.

So, my question to you, dead0man, would be: Why do you think is this the case?

You have a big big big flaw in your calculation.

When you just said that we found 5 Asylum seeker crimes and you did that with right-wing extremists you did not account for the population..

If we are talking about how many crimes are commited by Origin of the attacker you would get something like this:

If you divide the number of rapes by attackers from other countries with the number of people of that ethnic group living in Austria you would get this:

 Deutsche (12 von 100.000), Serben (27), Rumänen (32), Türken (41), Afghanen (119), Nigerianer (136) und Pakistani (440)


(http://diepresse.com/home/panorama/oesterreich/4900717/Sexuelle-Gewalt_Wer-sind-die-Taeter?_vl_backlink=%2Fhome%2Fpanorama%2Findex.do)


So that means 12/100 000 Germans, 136/100 000 Nigerians and so on...

We clearly see a correlation, and you can be an Extreme leftie and deny it but don't come running when Germany becomes a place you don't recognize.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The problem is the major victims of sexual assault are refugee women themselves, and I fail to see how that can be stopped by closing borders to protect the nation-state safe space.

[dead0man]

I can do that for you. No problem.

<snip>

Indeed, if you're attacking random Muslims you are a bigot/racist/whatever, I don't think anybody has argued that.  What was happening earlier in the thread was anybody that was against mass migration to Europe was labeled a racist.  Something that obviously isn't true, and worse than just being a lie (to be fair, they probably actually believe it, so I guess it's just ignorance), it brings any potential conversation between the two sides to a halt.  Perhaps that's the goal?  I don't know.

So, my question to you, dead0man, would be: Why do you think is this the case?

Because they are against mass immigration to Europe and want to highlight some of the more obvious negatives?  People that are pro mass migration are more than able of highlighting some more obvious positive examples if they want (good luck).

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I can do that for you. No problem.

<snip>

Indeed, if you're attacking random Muslims you are a bigot/racist/whatever, I don't think anybody has argued that.  What was happening earlier in the thread was anybody that was against mass migration to Europe was labeled a racist.  Something that obviously isn't true, and worse than just being a lie (to be fair, they probably actually believe it, so I guess it's just ignorance), it brings any potential conversation between the two sides to a halt.

is this a joke?

[DavidB.]

The point is obviously that two wrongs don't make a right. Of course all right-wingers in this thread found it horrible that asylum seekers were being attacked in Woerden and that Reker was attacked in Cologne. But the fact that some countries, particularly Germany, have a problem with nasty far-right extremists doesn't render the negative consequences of mass immigration any less problematic.

The right-wing extremists are German/Swedish/Dutch etc. nationals. Unfortunately, we have to deal with them and the problems they cause. They will not go away. However, we don't necessarily have to deal with the problems of mass immigration,  because our countries are basically choosing to let these people come in. We could stop taking in migrants and one could reasonably assume that the problems these migrants would cause will also not happen. That is not the case with right-wing extremists, who are here already (even if taking in more migrants will obviously lead to more right-wing extremist violence, but I don't think that threat should be relevant for policymakers -- right-wing extremists who engage in violence should simply be punished).

[Tender Branson]

The point is obviously that two wrongs don't make a right. Of course all right-wingers in this thread found it horrible that asylum seekers were being attacked in Woerden and that Reker was attacked in Cologne. But the fact that some countries, particularly Germany, have a problem with nasty far-right extremists doesn't render the negative consequences of mass immigration any less problematic.

The right-wing extremists are German/Swedish/Dutch etc. nationals. Unfortunately, we have to deal with them and the problems they cause. They will not go away. However, we don't necessarily have to deal with the problems of mass immigration,  because our countries are basically choosing to let these people come in and cause trouble. We could stop taking in migrants and one could reasonably assume that the problems these migrants would cause will also not happen. That is not the case with right-wing extremists, who are here already (even if taking in more migrants will obviously lead to more right-wing extremist violence, but I don't think that threat should be relevant for policymakers -- right-wing extremists who engage in violence should simply be punished).

Thank you for that reasonable, non-naive explanation.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I understand that. I have for a while disagreed with the current practice of forcing refugees to play a demented game of frogger from camps through the Sea, the Balkans, and to Germany. It was an unwise idea for Germany to make that the goal rather than focusing on processing and resettling refugees quickly directly from the camps. I also think it was absurdly naive to expect that people from these very patriarchal cultures would understand straight off the boat the customs of their new location. On the other, I have always thought that it is ... bad taste for the richest countries in the world to sit around and gawp while middle income and poor countries are crippled and humans are left to waste away in camps.

But I cannot understand dead0man's confusion about why people were decrying racism in this thread. Yes, I know being called racist is very distressing and, err, triggering; but I fail how you can read rhetoric like "uneducated hordes flooding the borders" etc. apparently backed up by a shadowy Frankfurt Schoolian "elite" and not think the motive is racism. I mean it's funny because people in this continent act so ing smarmy about Trump being some proof of America's backwardness as a nation, and at the same time implicitly endorse his own rhetoric. I'm honestly waiting for Salvini or someone to propose a wall across the Med.

[DavidB.]

First off, thanks for the considerate reply. It is nice to engage in a discussion about this with someone with whom I generally don't agree on this type of issues without immediately being called a racist (or a bad Jew).

I mean it's funny because people in this continent act so ing smarmy about Trump being some proof of America's backwardness as a nation, and at the same time implicitly endorse his own rhetoric.

I don't think people who say this stuff about Trump and connect it to the US' supposed backwardness as a nation are the same people who come up with the elite/Frankfurter Schule conspiracy mumbo-jumbo.

On the other, I have always thought that it is ... bad taste for the richest countries in the world to sit around and gawp while middle income and poor countries are crippled and humans are left to waste away in camps.

I agree with this.

But I cannot understand dead0man's confusion about why people were decrying racism in this thread. Yes, I know being called racist is very distressing and, err, triggering; but I fail how you can read rhetoric like "uneducated hordes flooding the borders" etc. apparently backed up by a shadowy Frankfurt Schoolian "elite" and not think the motive is racism.

I do think people in this thread -- myself certainly included -- have sometimes been a bit too harsh, but I want to emphasize once again that there is a very real difference between the people who think Europe should "remain white" yet for tactical reasons choose to formulate this in less inflammatory terms while continuing the dog-whistling on the one hand, and people who are simply concerned about the negative consequences, both short-term and long-term, of taking in many migrants from different cultures in European societies on the other hand.

I have the impression that many "pro-migration" posters in this thread seem to see the second type of person (to which category I think all the "migration critical" posters in this thread belong) basically as the same as the first time of person, the only difference being the more subtle language. From this perspective, opposition to immigration is essentially based on racism. I do not think this is an accurate description of our views, and I certainly do not think it does justice to my views (I am, by the way, sufficiently aware of the fact that I am the first one to be kicked out if Europe is to be "made white again", for whom do the extremists think are responsible for all this?) Seeing multiculturalism as something problematic is not necessarily based on racism. For me, it is based on the notion that individuals function better in relatively homogeneous societies and that relatively homogeneous societies are less conflict-prone, allow for more prosperity and, because of the absence of major cultural and identity-related conflicts, lead to a higher quality of life.

[dead0man]

But I cannot understand dead0man's confusion about why people were decrying racism in this thread. Yes, I know being called racist is very distressing and, err, triggering; but I fail how you can read rhetoric like "uneducated hordes flooding the borders" etc. apparently backed up by a shadowy Frankfurt Schoolian "elite" and not think the motive is racism. I mean it's funny because people in this continent act so ing smarmy about Trump being some proof of America's backwardness as a nation, and at the same time implicitly endorse his own rhetoric. I'm honestly waiting for Salvini or someone to propose a wall across the Med.

k



All I'm saying is not everybody that is against mass immigration to Europe is a racist.  Yes, there are racists that also hold that position, but that doesn't make the position racist.  This isn't complicated.

[Omega21]

First off, thanks for the considerate reply. It is nice to engage in a discussion about this with someone with whom I generally don't agree on this type of issues without immediately being called a racist (or a bad Jew).

I mean it's funny because people in this continent act so ing smarmy about Trump being some proof of America's backwardness as a nation, and at the same time implicitly endorse his own rhetoric.

I don't think people who say this stuff about Trump and connect it to the US' supposed backwardness as a nation are the same people who come up with the elite/Frankfurter Schule conspiracy mumbo-jumbo.

On the other, I have always thought that it is ... bad taste for the richest countries in the world to sit around and gawp while middle income and poor countries are crippled and humans are left to waste away in camps.

I agree with this.

But I cannot understand dead0man's confusion about why people were decrying racism in this thread. Yes, I know being called racist is very distressing and, err, triggering; but I fail how you can read rhetoric like "uneducated hordes flooding the borders" etc. apparently backed up by a shadowy Frankfurt Schoolian "elite" and not think the motive is racism.

I do think people in this thread -- myself certainly included -- have sometimes been a bit too harsh, but I want to emphasize once again that there is a very real difference between the people who think Europe should "remain white" yet for tactical reasons choose to formulate this in less inflammatory terms while continuing the dog-whistling on the one hand, and people who are simply concerned about the negative consequences, both short-term and long-term, of taking in many migrants from different cultures in European societies on the other hand.

I have the impression that many "pro-migration" posters in this thread seem to see the second type of person (to which category I think all the "migration critical" posters in this thread belong) basically as the same as the first time of person, the only difference being the more subtle language. From this perspective, opposition to immigration is essentially based on racism. I do not think this is an accurate description of our views, and I certainly do not think it does justice to my views (I am, by the way, sufficiently aware of the fact that I am the first one to be kicked out if Europe is to be "made white again", for whom do the extremists think are responsible for all this?) Seeing multiculturalism as something problematic is not necessarily based on racism. For me, it is based on the notion that individuals function better in relatively homogeneous societies and that relatively homogeneous societies are less conflict-prone, allow for more prosperity and, because of the absence of major cultural and identity-related conflicts, lead to a higher quality of life.

Thank you for such a good explanation..

Also another problem of mass immigration would be religion, extreme Islam (Not reffering to Terrorist or radical Islam) in which an individual lives by the Law's set by Islam, would pose a huge threat to Europe as Sharia does not go with Democracy and Western Society all that well.

And then we get the current problems of Rape, bad integration, AntiSemitism as some of the very religious migrants don't believe that they need to follow Laws set by that country but rather follow Allah's laws.

This was such a problem that the Left-leaning German State television ZDF made a documentary on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWAIKoatWM

In the video a class of German-born Muslim students were shown a video of a Honor killing of a young girl, and most of them showed more understanding for the Killer rather than the victim.

(An honor killing or shame killing is the homicide of a member of a family by other members, due to the perpetrators' belief that the victim has brought shame or dishonor upon the family)

So if you have the time please watch it, as it's a docummentary made by a Leftist Tv station and is suprisingly mostly unbiased, yet it highlights the real problem of Islam in Germany