Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[Famous Mortimer]

Turkey seems like the ideal place to put these people. A middle group between Europe and their original homelands geographically, economically, and culturally. Additionally, Turkey is far more responsible for stirring up s in Syria than even the US.

[Famous Mortimer]

If there was a flood of ultra-Orthodox Jews into Europe, I doubt people would be stoked either.

[Famous Mortimer]

How have Europeans kept immigrants from integrating? Immigrants have kept themselves from integrating.

[Famous Mortimer]

Wonder what all these Air BnBers are going to do when they realize these refugees are never going to return to their homeland.

[Famous Mortimer]

Jews from France who claim to be refugees in Israel are idiots.

[Famous Mortimer]

I am amazed by how David generally seems to be pretty good and objective in his analysis of events, even being able to put his own views aside, until Jews are brought up and he turns into a crazy person.

What's wrong with being preemptive? That's the opposite of trolling. That's a good thing to do in an argument.

[Famous Mortimer]

Bavarian state premier Horst Seehofer will invite Viktor Orban to the next conference meeting of his party's state parliamentary group. This is quite a big move considering that the German media and political class have painted Orban as an autocrat who's one step away from erecting concentration camps for refugees. Seehofer has also gone out of his way to criticize Merkel, calling her decision to accept refugees from Hungary a mistake.

(In German) http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/horst-seehofer-wettert-gegen-angela-merkel-in-fluechtlingspolitik-a-1052455.html

Orban IS an autocrat who's one step away from erecting concentration camps for refugees, though.

I believe those would be called "refugee camps".

Yes, calling a refugee camp a concentration camp is extremely hyperbolic. Most refugees in the world have to accept living in camps, there is no inherent reason why this should suddenly become something outrageous just because it happens in Europe. Hungarian refugee camps will still be miles better than African refugee camps.

I don't suppose anyone besides Orban has proposed them, but regular old refugee camps would probably be the ideal solution here. On one hand, it would be offering legitimate accommodation to refugees. On the other, once it becomes clear that they aren't handing out free downtown Berlin apartments on demand, I suspect most people will lose their incentive to try to cross the Mediterranean.

I suspect it's not politically possible though. Most of the left and a good number of other people will freak out at anything that could be construed as creating a second class of permanent/semi-permanent residents.

[Famous Mortimer]

You think conservative party led austerity is bad. Just wait until we redistribute all the wealth between Europe and Africa. 

[Famous Mortimer]

Oh, I see, so Middle Easterners are just lazy freeloaders and that's why their countries don't look like Austria. Thanks for proving my point about racism.

Part of the reason, the main reason, Austria is a nice place to live and Syria is a bad place to live IS the people who live there. What other reason would it be?

[Famous Mortimer]

Also (and this applies to Latin American/African immigration more than Syria), if poor people from the third world are such an economic boon for developed countries, why are their countries of origin so poor that they have to flee?

[Famous Mortimer]

I'm sceptical of the idea that a large migration would undermine the welfare state. The welfare states of Europe subsidise the elderly, for the most part, not the sort of twenty-somethings that apparat to make up the bulk of this wave.

Refugees are already subsidized the moment they arrive with free housing. Additionally, welfare states also subsidize children and migrants have children at a higher rate.

[Famous Mortimer]

You seem to be under the impression that people have just randomly decided not to like immigrants and so they are using these numbers as justification.

It's the opposite. These numbers are the reason people are hesitant about allowing mass immigration.

If immigrants in general didn't commit so much crime, if they didn't use up so many benefits, people would not mind immigration as much.

[Famous Mortimer]

Letting more young people in so that they can pay for the old people, even if it worked in the short term (which it's not clear it will, again, immigrants having a high unemployment rate) is a bad long term strategy. All those young people are going to become old themselves people one day. Then you have to let even more young people in. Then you really do run into problems of overpopulation.

[Famous Mortimer]

Germany has one of the lowest birth rates in the world, so we're not talking about increasing the population here: stabilizing it would be good enough.

Why is decreasing birthrate inherently bad? Decreasing birthrate almost always goes hand in hand with a country being a nice place to live. High birthrate almost always goes hand in hand with a country being a crap hole to live.

That women give birth just because "that's what people do in society" is not a hallmark of a good society.

[Famous Mortimer]

"Massive ISIS rally in Germany leaves citizens dumb founded" http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cfb_1449062774#SMfvAeurP7WOlM2p.99

I don't speak Arabic, but they are certainly waving the ISIS flag.

I'm confused. What is this? There is nothing reliable on this. Can someone other than the regulars explain this? Antonio, maybe?

I've also heard stories about an aid working in Italy getting stabbed by refugees and another about a female aid worker being gang raped. They sound "too good to be true" from an anti-immigration standpoint so I'm doubtful. I get the feeling if they were true though, the media wouldn't report them.

[Famous Mortimer]

Well, this German regional MP from the Greens said that Germans no longer constituting majorities in Hamburg and other large German cities was a good thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-KaFRbdXMI

Alright, that's cringeworthy. Wouldn't see Greens in the Netherlands say similar things, but I guess the post-WWII German left has always had this complex about German identity being something bad.

On Europe's future, well, I am glad there is a beautiful country I can go to, because I really think the ship is sinking and most people just don't seem to wake up from their dreamworld. It doesn't look good now and it will only go downhill from here. It is a true tragedy.

Surprised you wouldn't see the Greens say this in the Netherlands. Or would they just not ADMIT it? Here in America, most young White leftists salivate at the thought of Whites becoming a minority. The Democratic Party, of course, would never ever say such a thing but it's going to be awkward in 10 to 15 years when the current crop of young people start becoming party and government officials.

[Famous Mortimer]

"Norwegian politician felt 'guilt & responsibility' after being sodomized by Somali refugee"

https://www.rt.com/news/338779-somalian-refugee-raped-politician/

[Famous Mortimer]

If only he had been assimilated!

and the fact that he wasn't is the White man's fault. Damn them for giving him free housing and a guaranteed minimum income that even Austrian citizens aren't entitled to. They should have done more!

[Famous Mortimer]

They migrants who died weren't from Iraq or Syria. They were mostly from Somalia and Eritrea. 

[Famous Mortimer]

I don't know how to phrase this without sounding sarcastic but it's a legitimate question, do you just want to give everyone in Africa free housing and $1000 bucks a month? Do you think that's workable? If not, where do you draw the line?

[Famous Mortimer]

You think non-left-leftists want economic refugees to come to Europe in sh**tty boats?

No,

but that's what you said.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well no, it's a consequence of your idiot leaders telling economic migrants that they are very welcome.  If you put out a sign that says "all your dreams can come true if you figure a way to make it inside our countries" you're going to have people die trying to get there.  You may wish that they traveled on cruise ships instead of rafts, but wishes and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee.  The non"left lefitsts"don't want them coming at all.  Blaming them for people dying in route is stupid, but I suppose that's par for the course.

I would be beneficial for the discussion if you made at least some modest fact checking before you write.. As long as life is hell in countries surrounding the EU people will try to get here and as long as the current legislation is in place they will do so on insanely dangerous boats, rather than on cheaper normal boats or airplanes. To blame the left for any of that is simply factually incorrect. Similarly it was not the left that terminated Mare Nostrum. The right will, when it returns to its senses, have to do a lot of soul searching..

Anyway, in another era..

That meant something back before the welfare state was a thing.

[Famous Mortimer]

As far as the sensational crime stories go, yes, out of a population that is over one million, there will be plenty of rapists and thieves and murderers. There's no justification for this behavior, of course. However, there are obvious issues when attempting to compile crime data on these populations and comparing them to the domestic population at large: there are going to be obvious reporting discrepancies that are accounted for by differing cultural norms surrounding crime and how it is conducted and done, more particularly surrounding rape/sexual assault.

What dependencies? Can you be more specific? Non-consentual sex is non-consentual regardless of your ethnic background.

[Famous Mortimer]

Of course they don't want to go to Portugal, Poland etc.

Portugal and Co. are not offering them the generous welfare goodies that for example Vienna offers this Afghan family of 11 - who are getting 6.000€ a month in welfare payments and who now want the state to pay them for a 10th child via IVF:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3554065/Afghan-couple-want-IVF-Austria-tenth-child.html

Exactly and you can't evenly spread out the migrants while you have visa free travel between EU countries. Unless you want to have visa free travel but ONLY for non-migrants. I don't think the left would like this. They propose it now because they know it would never happen, Poland and Slovakia and Hungary would block it. But if it actually did happen, they would complain about it making migrants second class. It's a Moderate Hero position that no one actually likes. The real choice is still between, opening the EU and letting everyone in Africa and the Middle East move to Berlin and Vienna or closing the EU.