1st Parliament of South America
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Author Topic: 1st Parliament of South America  (Read 33950 times)
Simfan34
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« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2015, 02:24:02 PM »
« edited: August 28, 2015, 02:30:24 PM by Simfan34 »

Can non government members amend government bills? Because, to be honest, one of the things I liked least about Atlasian legalism were TNF's constant amendments. Wink
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Barnes
Roy Barnes 2010
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« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2015, 02:28:40 PM »

Can non government members amend government bills?

Does the question refer to members of opposition parties or to members of government parties not holding a ministerial position?

Only members of opposition parties are allowed to propose amendments to government bills.

The Second Reading debate on the main bill and any amendments will be conducted simultaneously to allow for the widest-possible discussion of the topic while not consuming an undue amount of time. 

The sponsor of the bill (in this case the Minister for Justice) may accept any proposed amendments, thereby eliminating the need for a division on the particular amendment.

Following the Second Reading, a division will be held on any amendments.  If there are multiple amendments, I will conduct separate votes simultaneously to allow for a speedy process.
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Barnes
Roy Barnes 2010
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« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2015, 02:33:05 PM »

Remember also that there is a cap on the amount of amendments that each party can propose.  The Honorable Member, Mr. TNF, has proposed the one amendment allowed for the Workers' Party.
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Oakvale
oakvale
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« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2015, 02:34:25 PM »

Mr. Speaker,

I should note that the issue raised by the honourable member in reference to binding future parliaments (with regards to the majority for passage vs. two-thirds for further amendments) was one I considered during the drafting, and in fact my initial proposal required a two-thirds majority for initial passage. I also considered a public referendum. I ultimately rejected this for practical reasons - we need a 'bare bones' Constitution sooner rather than later, and this government received a very strong mandate, in fact barely short of two thirds to establish the structures of the nation.

I would add that under no circumstances should any legislation other than the Constitution, which is and must be considered a special case, should require such a majority to amend.

I also disagree entirely with the argument made by the leader of the Worker's Party.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
ChairmanSanchez
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« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2015, 02:50:18 PM »

The Pioneers propose the following Amendment.

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Vega
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« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2015, 04:29:32 PM »

The Right Honorable member has proposed a good amendment, and I support it wholeheartedly.

The same goes for the entire constitution, as well.
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Barnes
Roy Barnes 2010
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« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2015, 07:25:29 PM »

I would like to ascertain from the Minister if he accepts the amendment proposed by Mr. ChairmanSanchez.
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Oakvale
oakvale
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« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2015, 07:48:14 PM »

Mr. Speaker,

After consulting with my colleagues and members from across the floor, I would be open to accepting the leader of the Pioneers' amendment were he to offer to remove the referendum requirement - popular vote is no way to deal with issues in a parliamentary system.
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Barnes
Roy Barnes 2010
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« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2015, 07:49:51 PM »

I thank the Minister for updating the House.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
ChairmanSanchez
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« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2015, 08:16:48 PM »

Mr. Speaker;

My Right Honorable Friend, the Minister of Justice, has proposed a wonderful constitution. But I do not believe that parliament should be able to amend such a document as if it were just any other piece of legislation. On matters of such importance, direct democracy is the best solution, and I ask that the issue at least be considered a bit more.
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Barnes
Roy Barnes 2010
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« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2015, 08:20:54 PM »

I thank the Honorable Member for his comments. I am sure the House will live up to its standards and conduct a robust debate on the proposals before it on the Second Reading.
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TNF
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« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2015, 09:33:45 AM »

Constitutions should be malleable, so I oppose any text that proposes hard and strict vote totals above a simple majority to change them. We shouldn't enslave future generations to the prejudices of the moment. That's a big part of why Atlasia was and is garbage.
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Oakvale
oakvale
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« Reply #87 on: August 29, 2015, 09:53:09 AM »

Constitutions should be malleable, so I oppose any text that proposes hard and strict vote totals above a simple majority to change them. We shouldn't enslave future generations to the prejudices of the moment. That's a big part of why Atlasia was and is garbage.

A two-thirds majority isn't really a particularly steep hill to climb - with 11 seats required for a majority, a government with a bare majority would only need to win over three members of the opposition to pass an amendment.
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Barnes
Roy Barnes 2010
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« Reply #88 on: August 29, 2015, 10:25:24 AM »

I remind members of the Socialist Party that they have a few more hours to lodge up to two amendmemts to the bill.
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Barnes
Roy Barnes 2010
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« Reply #89 on: August 29, 2015, 01:21:23 PM »

Second Reading

The bill is now open for general debate for the Second Reading. I remind members that both the bill and all proposed amendments will be debated at this stage.

I will also say that debates in the Parliament are one of the central features of this game. I except everyone to make their own contributions (and not simple empty quoting) in keeping with the styles of parliamentary debate - that includes addressing all remarks to the Speaker.
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Türkisblau
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« Reply #90 on: August 29, 2015, 11:40:49 PM »

This parliament should not be bending to the will of reactionary right wingers and their militias.

There should be no constitution and certainly no 2/3rds majority to repeal whatever the Conservatives plan to shove down the throats of the South American working poor.
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Blair
Blair2015
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« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2015, 03:29:12 AM »

This parliament should not be bending to the will of reactionary right wingers and their militias.

There should be no constitution and certainly no 2/3rds majority to repeal whatever the Conservatives plan to shove down the throats of the South American working poor.

I really don't see what relation having or not having a constitution is to the 'working poor'. I know your party prides itself on claiming to represent these groups but the way we help all in society is by a strong, stable parliamentary government. This bill does just that
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Oakvale
oakvale
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« Reply #92 on: August 30, 2015, 07:17:44 AM »

Mr. Speaker,

After further consideration of points raised by my honourable friends and members of the opposition, I offer the following amendment -


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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #93 on: August 30, 2015, 11:50:10 AM »

While we have many issues with this government and are proud to oppose it, this document sets out a sensible and workable set of rules and we expect to be able to support its passage through this House.
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PJ
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« Reply #94 on: August 30, 2015, 10:27:11 PM »

Mr. Speaker,

I echo the statement of Honorable Member and fellow Socialist comrade Widdershins. The establishment of a constitution is absolutely necessary when structuring a government that will have the power to protect the rights and needs of society's most disadvantaged. While I (and the entirety of the Socialist Party) are usually in disagreement with the ruling Conservatives, I do hope we can agree on this constitution's necessity. I don't agree with either of the two proposed amendments by the Workers Party or the Pioneers, respectively. To have a frankly austere approach to the number of government offices to the point of combining offices which have completely separate duties, such as combining the roles of president and prime minister, is a slap in the face to the concept of parliamentarianism. The same can be said of the amendment proposed by the Honorable Member Sanchez, which seeks to circumvent parliament in favor of modeling the government of our republic after the right-wing monstrosity of a state that is Switzerland through overdependence on "direct democracy." The concept of a referendum on constitutional amendments is especially unsuited to our situation, in which a substantial proportion of our population are already MPs.
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Murica!
whyshouldigiveyoumyname?
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« Reply #95 on: August 30, 2015, 11:01:58 PM »

I refuse to comment on the constitution as I will be forced by the Party bureaucracy to vote a certain way regardless of my opinions.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2015, 06:40:12 AM »

That is how a parliamentary party system tends to work, yes.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2015, 12:19:04 PM »

In this time it is important to establish firm mechanisms for the working of democracy. As a Socialist I support the constitution.
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Barnes
Roy Barnes 2010
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« Reply #98 on: September 01, 2015, 12:40:48 AM »

I would like to inform the House that barring any unforeseen motions, I will be moving this bill to the divisions on the proposed amendments at 2:20 pm later today.
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Barnes
Roy Barnes 2010
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« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2015, 01:04:49 PM »

(Going to go ahead and move this.)

We will be conducting two divisions at the same time. The first is on Amendment No. 1 proposed by Mr. TNF; the second is Amendment No. 2 proposed by Mr. ChairmamSanchez.

I ask all Honorable Members to please make sure to state which vote for which division they are casting.
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