Some kind of Test before Voting?
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Author Topic: Some kind of Test before Voting?  (Read 3078 times)
Jacobtm
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« on: August 21, 2015, 06:07:08 PM »

Many people complain about Trump voters being stupid.

Well, would you support some kind of test before voting?

Maybe it could just be something that proves basic literacy.

Or maybe it could be something that tests your knowledge of the constitution in some basic way, similar to the U.S. citizenship test.

Perhaps instead of a test each time you vote, we have to all take a U.S. citizenship-style test when we're 18 to see if we get to vote or not.

I think any of these would be a good idea, I do agree that there are many idiots out there, and stopping them from voting I think could only improve the quality of the candidates picked. Hell, the same candidates would likely pursue different policies if they know the voter pool is not as dumb as it once was.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2015, 06:08:13 PM »

Then it would be a privilege to vote, not a right.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2015, 06:08:56 PM »

Poll taxes are bad.
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Jacobtm
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2015, 06:09:59 PM »
« Edited: August 21, 2015, 06:12:09 PM by Seinfeld »

Ok we've had a few one-sentence responses, can anyone give an actual detailed answer here or will it be "No that is bad" "No it is a right" straight on down? Is the general level of discourse here a one-sentence statement of creed, or do people actually discuss things?

Why should voting be a right and not a privilege?

Why are poll taxes bad?

I think if we accept that there are in fact some people who are dumb, some who are smart, and the majority somewhere in the middle, well restricting the dumb ones from voting would help.
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2015, 06:12:06 PM »

I don't support Trump at all tbh, but I do agree on a basic citizenship test who's the President, where's the capital of the U.S. name one of your senators type of a test every election.
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Jacobtm
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2015, 06:15:28 PM »

I don't support Trump at all tbh, but I do agree on a basic citizenship test who's the President, where's the capital of the U.S. name one of your senators type of a test every election.

The Can You Vote Test:

1: What is the name of this country?

A. The United States of America
B. The United States of Mexico
C. The Dominican Republic
D. Great Britain

2: Who is the current President?

A. Bill Clinton
B. George Bush
C. Barack Obama
D. Ronald Reagan

3: What is the capital of this country?

A. New York City
B. Miami
C. Los Angeles
D. Washington D.C.

Let's say you need 100% to pass. Basic enough that everyone you would want voting would pass, but I  would guess that a solid 5-10% of people would not qualify.

Just so people don't get mad, we could make them all take the test, tell each of them that they actually got 100% and were cleared to vote, then let them all go through the motions of voting. Then in reality only count the ones who got 100%.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2015, 06:21:30 PM »

Ok we've had a few one-sentence responses, can anyone give an actual detailed answer here or will it be "No that is bad" "No it is a right" straight on down? Is the general level of discourse here a one-sentence statement of creed, or do people actually discuss things?

Why should voting be a right and not a privilege?

Why are poll taxes bad?

I think if we accept that there are in fact some people who are dumb, some who are smart, and the majority somewhere in the middle, well restricting the dumb ones from voting would help.

Why dont you ask your 7th grade social studies teacher why poll taxes are bad...or were you not paying attention?
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Jacobtm
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2015, 06:25:05 PM »

Ok we've had a few one-sentence responses, can anyone give an actual detailed answer here or will it be "No that is bad" "No it is a right" straight on down? Is the general level of discourse here a one-sentence statement of creed, or do people actually discuss things?

Why should voting be a right and not a privilege?

Why are poll taxes bad?

I think if we accept that there are in fact some people who are dumb, some who are smart, and the majority somewhere in the middle, well restricting the dumb ones from voting would help.

Why dont you ask your 7th grade social studies teacher why poll taxes are bad...or were you not paying attention?

Ok so a one-sentence reply and snark. Is your level of thinking really just remembering what you were told in 7th grade and stopping there?

I remember being taught that literacy tests were used to keep freemen, who had not been taught to read and write, from voting.

We no longer have that situation, as African Americans go to school just like anyone else.

So it seems like the times have changed, and my 7th grade teacher didn't have much to say on why they were bad now. Are you going to go ask your mom for your 7th grade notebook so you can see if she provided you an explanation for why they would be bad today?

Or perhaps you have an idea to share.
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PJ
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2015, 06:27:26 PM »

Voting should be mandatory.

In the meantime, voluntary voting should be as easy as possible, and your suggestion would discourage the apathetic from voting by making them jump through meaningless hoops before they gain the ability to vote.

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Jacobtm
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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2015, 06:32:53 PM »

Voting should be mandatory.

In the meantime, voluntary voting should be as easy as possible, and your suggestion would discourage the apathetic from voting by making them jump through meaningless hoops before they gain the ability to vote.



I'm not trying to discourage the apathetic with meaningless hoops.

I'm trying to discourage the unintelligent with a meaningful test.

What do you think should be the penalty for failing to vote? Say I think "the whole system is rigged" and refuse to vote.

Fine, jail time, public shaming?
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Negusa Nagast 🚀
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« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2015, 06:47:33 PM »

Voting should be mandatory.

In the meantime, voluntary voting should be as easy as possible, and your suggestion would discourage the apathetic from voting by making them jump through meaningless hoops before they gain the ability to vote.



+1

Compulsory voting + automatic registration + a long early window for early ballots + making an election day a national holiday is the way to go.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2015, 07:01:30 PM »

Voting should be mandatory.

In the meantime, voluntary voting should be as easy as possible, and your suggestion would discourage the apathetic from voting by making them jump through meaningless hoops before they gain the ability to vote.



That's just as bad as forcing people to take a test. I mean, have you ever considered people don't want to vote? Maybe they don't like any political parties? Maybe we shouldn't force the uninformed to be 'informed'. The idea that this will improve democracy is delusional.
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ag
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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2015, 07:25:53 PM »

Most horrible idea.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2015, 07:30:13 PM »


Thumbs up.
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ag
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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2015, 07:37:32 PM »


Not the best idea either. People should have the right to abstain.
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ag
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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2015, 07:41:34 PM »

Voting should be mandatory.

In the meantime, voluntary voting should be as easy as possible, and your suggestion would discourage the apathetic from voting by making them jump through meaningless hoops before they gain the ability to vote.



I'm not trying to discourage the apathetic with meaningless hoops.

I'm trying to discourage the unintelligent with a meaningful test.

What do you think should be the penalty for failing to vote? Say I think "the whole system is rigged" and refuse to vote.

Fine, jail time, public shaming?

Well, there are many countries with mandatory voting. In Peru your ID is invalid without a stamp that you get at the voting precinct. If you do not have that stamp, you need to pay a fine before you can so much as use it in a bank. In Australia, I believe, you get a ticket for smthg like 20 bucks. You have a right to explain why you did not vote in writing instead of paying the fine. If a judge finds your explanation satisfactory, he waives the fine. Otherwise, you get a ticket for 50 bucks or so. That has been pretty much enough to get turnout well over 90% most of the time (they also have mandatory voter registration there).
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Murica!
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« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2015, 08:11:08 PM »

No, just no.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2015, 09:05:27 PM »

Ok we've had a few one-sentence responses, can anyone give an actual detailed answer here or will it be "No that is bad" "No it is a right" straight on down? Is the general level of discourse here a one-sentence statement of creed, or do people actually discuss things?

Why should voting be a right and not a privilege?

Why are poll taxes bad?

I think if we accept that there are in fact some people who are dumb, some who are smart, and the majority somewhere in the middle, well restricting the dumb ones from voting would help.


Shouldn't the burden be on you to provide an argument that linking someone's right to vote to their knowledge of inane trivia is a good idea? What does being able to name the capital have to do with whether or not one has valid opinions about issues facing their community?
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PJ
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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2015, 10:32:33 PM »

Voting should be mandatory.

In the meantime, voluntary voting should be as easy as possible, and your suggestion would discourage the apathetic from voting by making them jump through meaningless hoops before they gain the ability to vote.



I'm not trying to discourage the apathetic with meaningless hoops.

I'm trying to discourage the unintelligent with a meaningful test.

Regardless of what you intend to do, the results would be transforming voting into a privilege and making it more difficult even for those who pass your absurd test. The imaginary swathes of voters in your head that don't know what country we live in (lol) are merely a scapegoat for discouraging participation in the democratic process altogether.

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A fine after multiple offenses, but I support structuring all government levied fines progressively, as opposed to regressive flat rates, so that the rich are actually impacted by fines and the poor aren't overly charged.

Voting should be mandatory.

In the meantime, voluntary voting should be as easy as possible, and your suggestion would discourage the apathetic from voting by making them jump through meaningless hoops before they gain the ability to vote.



+1

Compulsory voting + automatic registration + a long early window for early ballots + making an election day a national holiday is the way to go.

Agree for the most part. Speaking as an Oregonian, I may be a bit biased, but I have a very favorable opinion of mail-in voting, and the fact that they give people the ability to vote over an extended period of time makes them a better alternative than trying to get as many people to vote in a short period of time (i.e. making election day a holiday).

Voting should be mandatory.

In the meantime, voluntary voting should be as easy as possible, and your suggestion would discourage the apathetic from voting by making them jump through meaningless hoops before they gain the ability to vote.



That's just as bad as forcing people to take a test.

This is moderate hero nonsense. There are legitimate concerns about mandatory voting, but to compare being forced to vote with being denied the ability to vote is ridiculous anti-extremism straight out of the Computer09 playbook.

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The purpose of mandatory voting is not to force those who are actively boycotting the democratic process for whatever reason to vote. Its purpose is to give those who believe their vote is meaningless a stake in the political process. The latter reason is much more common among the 42.8% of Americans who chose not to vote in 2012. The issue of uninformed voters (and the uninformed who choose not to vote) is larger than mandatory voting, but no, people do not have a right to remain uninformed. That's ridiculous.

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Democracy is improved when government is more representative of its constituents, so increasing the number of people voting does indeed improve democracy.


Not the best idea either. People should have the right to abstain.

Again, the ultimate goal of mandatory voting is not to prevent boycotting of the democratic process. Write-in and NOTA options should be on the ballot, with or without compulsory voting.
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Murica!
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« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2015, 10:36:52 PM »

TIL that me not voting is moderate hero nonsense.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2015, 10:53:33 PM »

Voting should be mandatory.

In the meantime, voluntary voting should be as easy as possible, and your suggestion would discourage the apathetic from voting by making them jump through meaningless hoops before they gain the ability to vote.



That's just as bad as forcing people to take a test.

This is moderate hero nonsense. There are legitimate concerns about mandatory voting, but to compare being forced to vote with being denied the ability to vote is ridiculous anti-extremism straight out of the Computer09 playbook.

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The purpose of mandatory voting is not to force those who are actively boycotting the democratic process for whatever reason to vote. Its purpose is to give those who believe their vote is meaningless a stake in the political process. The latter reason is much more common among the 42.8% of Americans who chose not to vote in 2012. The issue of uninformed voters (and the uninformed who choose not to vote) is larger than mandatory voting, but no, people do not have a right to remain uninformed. That's ridiculous.

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Democracy is improved when government is more representative of its constituents, so increasing the number of people voting does indeed improve democracy.

1) Maybe its not as bad, but its pretty bad. Its taking away freedom either way. Whether its the 40% or so Americans that choose not to participate or the millions that would vote but couldn't because of a stupid test.

2) Why would any person who believes their vote isn't worth anything think their vote would be worth something after everyone voted? Its usually because they believes politics in general is corrupt, they don't like the political parties and their establishments, or something along those lines. Having everyone vote would not make people think their vote counted more (actually less since their a smaller piece in the bigger pie). And people do have a right to be uninformed. I choose to be uninformed about all sorts of stuff. We're all somewhat uninformed about our government, its the degree to which its true. But if you don't like freedom, then yeah its a great idea to force people to vote whether their informed or not.

3) Democracy is government by the people. If people are forced to participate in a democracy by the state, then the state is partially determining the outcome, which is antithetical to the idea in the first place.

Side note: Fining people for not voting would probably disproportionately hurt the poor and uneducated, but I know you care about the poor so much so its all good.
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PJ
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2015, 11:43:39 PM »

TIL that me not voting is moderate hero nonsense.

Did you even read my post? The moderate hero label was in reference to the absurd claim that forcing people to vote and denying people the right to vote are just as bad.

Besides, haven't you professed that you vote, and disagree with anarchism on boycotting the political process? I even recall you stating critical support for Sanders on AAD.

Voting should be mandatory.

In the meantime, voluntary voting should be as easy as possible, and your suggestion would discourage the apathetic from voting by making them jump through meaningless hoops before they gain the ability to vote.



That's just as bad as forcing people to take a test.

This is moderate hero nonsense. There are legitimate concerns about mandatory voting, but to compare being forced to vote with being denied the ability to vote is ridiculous anti-extremism straight out of the Computer09 playbook.

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The purpose of mandatory voting is not to force those who are actively boycotting the democratic process for whatever reason to vote. Its purpose is to give those who believe their vote is meaningless a stake in the political process. The latter reason is much more common among the 42.8% of Americans who chose not to vote in 2012. The issue of uninformed voters (and the uninformed who choose not to vote) is larger than mandatory voting, but no, people do not have a right to remain uninformed. That's ridiculous.

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Democracy is improved when government is more representative of its constituents, so increasing the number of people voting does indeed improve democracy.

1) Maybe its not as bad, but its pretty bad. Its taking away freedom either way. Whether its the 40% or so Americans that choose not to participate or the millions that would vote but couldn't because of a stupid test.

2) Why would any person who believes their vote isn't worth anything think their vote would be worth something after everyone voted? Its usually because they believes politics in general is corrupt, they don't like the political parties and their establishments, or something along those lines. Having everyone vote would not make people think their vote counted more (actually less since their a smaller piece in the bigger pie). And people do have a right to be uninformed. I choose to be uninformed about all sorts of stuff. We're all somewhat uninformed about our government, its the degree to which its true. But if you don't like freedom, then yeah its a great idea to force people to vote whether their informed or not.

3) Democracy is government by the people. If people are forced to participate in a democracy by the state, then the state is partially determining the outcome, which is antithetical to the idea in the first place.

Side note: Fining people for not voting would probably disproportionately hurt the poor and uneducated, but I know you care about the poor so much so its all good.

One's vote is obviously worth more if they choose to vote than if they choose not to. To say that people do not have a right to be uninformed is not to say that people should be forced to be informed about everything, but to say that a lack of knowledge about the country's political system or anything else is not something that ought to be encouraged, or God forbid, protected. What is the tangible difference between mandatory and voluntary voting in terms of dissatisfaction with the political system if a NOTA option is available on the ballot?

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No more than the government is determining the outcome by administering elections under voluntary voting. The state (assuming we are referring to a genuine democracy) does not control who the people vote for in either scenario.

And as I've already stated, flat rate fines disproportionately affect the poor, which is why I favor progressively structured fines.
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RFayette
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« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2015, 11:46:27 PM »

The reason literacy tests to vote are illegal is that states like Louisiana made them utterly impossible as a way to discriminate against minorities, leading to the 1965 VRA.  Frankly, were there no potential for racist/partisan abuse, I'd be all for a citizenship, literacy, and economics test to be able to vote, but this is in conflict with the universal voting paradigm that's accepted by most Americans now, and it has too much potential for abuse. 
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2015, 07:03:43 AM »

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Oakvale
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2015, 07:34:11 AM »

Mandatory voting is a terrible idea and it's embarrassing to see so many liberals endorsing it because they wrongly think it would help their 'side' in elections.
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