Paraguay successful at denying 11-year old incest victim abortion

[CapoteMonster]

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Paraguay's officials are massive HPs. She was clearly at serious health risk and don't any of you tell me the kid wasn't since her childbirth was successful. If my dog who can't swim was thrown in the pool by me stand survived I shouldn't be cleared of animal abuse because he lived.

[DavidB.]

Yeah, I'm pro-life but these Paraguayans are taking it too far. Pregnancy obviously endangers a 11-year old's life, period. Inhuman.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Depends on the 11-year old whether a pregnancy would be a danger.  For most it would be, but the doctors were of the opinion it wasn't in this case. At some point you have to trust experts, or does that only apply to global warming?  The pregnancy was well past the point where I think abortion on demand must be an option and close to the point where I think it should not be an option, so despite that not being in Paraguayan law, it didn't have much of an effect.

This is a hard case, but it looks like other than they should have caught on to what was happening sooner, I can't say that I fault the Paraguayan authorities here. The fetus was close to viability, the female was not at immediate risk, and I don't believe rape or incest should make abortions easier to obtain.  The sole valid justification for restricting abortion is to protect what is considered to be a human life and no matter how vile the biological father is, that vileness has no bearing on whether it is a human life.

[politicus]

I don't believe rape or incest should make abortions easier to obtain.  The sole valid justification for restricting abortion is to protect what is considered to be a human life and no matter how vile the biological father is, that vileness has no bearing on whether it is a human life.

The girl is a human life as well, and it is reasonable to protect the human already in existence (with established emotional ties to other humans and importance in their lives) over the unborn. Bearing your rapists child is an extremely traumatic occurrence that is likely to inflict her for the rest of her life. Health of the mother includes mental health of the mother. It can not reasonably be limited to psychical health.

So despicable decision/law all around.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Disgusting. Many countries in Latin America are still trailing far behind on this front. Hopefully horrors like this will help shift public opinion and bring about much-needed progress.

[Simfan34]

Depends on the 11-year old whether a pregnancy would be a danger.  For most it would be, but the doctors were of the opinion it wasn't in this case. At some point you have to trust experts, or does that only apply to global warming?  The pregnancy was well past the point where I think abortion on demand must be an option and close to the point where I think it should not be an option, so despite that not being in Paraguayan law, it didn't have much of an effect.

This is a hard case, but it looks like other than they should have caught on to what was happening sooner, I can't say that I fault the Paraguayan authorities here. The fetus was close to viability, the female was not at immediate risk, and I don't believe rape or incest should make abortions easier to obtain.  The sole valid justification for restricting abortion is to protect what is considered to be a human life and no matter how vile the biological father is, that vileness has no bearing on whether it is a human life.

I'm glad someone agrees with me. I struggle to see how the circumstances, as horrific as they are, would justify termination of a child who had nothing to do with the situation at hand.

[politicus]

Depends on the 11-year old whether a pregnancy would be a danger.  For most it would be, but the doctors were of the opinion it wasn't in this case. At some point you have to trust experts, or does that only apply to global warming?  The pregnancy was well past the point where I think abortion on demand must be an option and close to the point where I think it should not be an option, so despite that not being in Paraguayan law, it didn't have much of an effect.

This is a hard case, but it looks like other than they should have caught on to what was happening sooner, I can't say that I fault the Paraguayan authorities here. The fetus was close to viability, the female was not at immediate risk, and I don't believe rape or incest should make abortions easier to obtain.  The sole valid justification for restricting abortion is to protect what is considered to be a human life and no matter how vile the biological father is, that vileness has no bearing on whether it is a human life.

I'm glad someone agrees with me. I struggle to see how the circumstances, as horrific as they are, would justify termination of a child who had nothing to do with the situation at hand.

It is not circumstances, but a woman's live. It is easy to reduce this to something "principled" when you are a man and will never be in a similar situation.

You got one ruined life vs. one terminated life. The ruined life belongs to a person already in existence and therefore takes precedence. Try to think of it as the girl being traumatized to the point of being mentally dead. You then got two kinds of killing to weigh against each other. This is the ethical dilemma. Forcing an 11 year old to carry her rapists child is cruel and inhuman. Far more than killing an unborn. Psychical death is not always the most horrible destiny. It is much too simplistic to view it that way.

[DavidB.]

I think any pregnancy of an 11-year old poses a great danger for her health, both physically (even if these dangers are not life-threatening) and mentally. I think 22 weeks is too late and the abortion should ideally have taken place earlier, but it should be allowed nonetheless. In general, I'm mostly not for going down the "mentally problematic = allow abortion" road, because next thing you know someone wants an abortion because she can't party all night long anymore and that's sooo mentally threatening, but when it comes to girls under 16, I think an exception should be made, for the mental issues and the physical issues combined can really ruin such a young girl's life. That's not a really consistent position, but in the abortion debate, any truly consistent position seems problematic and inhuman to me, so I'll settle for a compromise. (normal Dutch)

It is not circumstances, but a woman's live. It is easy to reduce this to something "principled" when you are a man and will never be in a similar situation.

I am sympathetic to your position in general, but this is not an argument. Like it or not, there are lots of women who take the same stance. The idea that someone's gender is even remotely relevant in the abortion debate is based on some very problematic assumptions. You don't have to be able to have a child in order to have an opinion (more specifically, a negative opinion) on abortion.

[politicus]

It is not circumstances, but a woman's live. It is easy to reduce this to something "principled" when you are a man and will never be in a similar situation.

I am sympathetic to your position in general, but this is not an argument. Like it or not, there are lots of women who take the same stance. The idea that someone's gender is even remotely relevant in the abortion debate is based on some very problematic assumptions. You don't have to be able to have a child in order to have an opinion (more specifically, a negative opinion) on abortion.

Of course not (and obviously never claimed so), but it is no coincidence that male pro-lifers tend to disproportionally take the black and white principled position where the health and functioning of the mother is ignored. There is a lack of empathy connected to this and that is rather obviously enhanced by never having to deal with a similar situation. Gender creates a distance in this area.

Anyway, we are talking odds here, not absolutes (as always when dealing with the generation of human opinions).

[Jacobtm]

A child will be born in Paraguay.

Carry on.

[TDAS04]

And in El Salvador, women who miscarry are accused of murder.  Shameful.

[Zioneer]

A child will be born in Paraguay.

Carry on.

A child born of a rapist stepfather and an 11 year old girl who will have her physical and mental health drastically affected by this.

[Jacobtm]

A child will be born in Paraguay.

Carry on.

A child born of a rapist stepfather and an 11 year old girl who will have her physical and mental health drastically affected by this.

So mercy kill her?

Ok...

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I don't believe rape or incest should make abortions easier to obtain.  The sole valid justification for restricting abortion is to protect what is considered to be a human life and no matter how vile the biological father is, that vileness has no bearing on whether it is a human life.

The girl is a human life as well, and it is reasonable to protect the human already in existence (with established emotional ties to other humans and importance in their lives) over the unborn. Bearing your rapists child is an extremely traumatic occurrence that is likely to inflict her for the rest of her life. Health of the mother includes mental health of the mother. It can not reasonably be limited to psychical health.

So despicable decision/law all around.

What makes you think an abortion would be less traumatic than a birth? 

[Figueira]

I was hoping that no one on Atlas would defend this, but I guess I was wrong. Disgusting.

[MaxQue]

I was hoping that no one on Atlas would defend this, but I guess I was wrong. Disgusting.

No real poster did, only a fake troll.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't believe rape or incest should make abortions easier to obtain.  The sole valid justification for restricting abortion is to protect what is considered to be a human life and no matter how vile the biological father is, that vileness has no bearing on whether it is a human life.

The girl is a human life as well, and it is reasonable to protect the human already in existence (with established emotional ties to other humans and importance in their lives) over the unborn. Bearing your rapists child is an extremely traumatic occurrence that is likely to inflict her for the rest of her life. Health of the mother includes mental health of the mother. It can not reasonably be limited to psychical health.

So despicable decision/law all around.

What makes you think an abortion would be less traumatic than a birth? 

Perhaps the fact that she chose the former.

[muon2]

Depends on the 11-year old whether a pregnancy would be a danger.  For most it would be, but the doctors were of the opinion it wasn't in this case. At some point you have to trust experts, or does that only apply to global warming?  The pregnancy was well past the point where I think abortion on demand must be an option and close to the point where I think it should not be an option, so despite that not being in Paraguayan law, it didn't have much of an effect.

This is a hard case, but it looks like other than they should have caught on to what was happening sooner, I can't say that I fault the Paraguayan authorities here. The fetus was close to viability, the female was not at immediate risk, and I don't believe rape or incest should make abortions easier to obtain.  The sole valid justification for restricting abortion is to protect what is considered to be a human life and no matter how vile the biological father is, that vileness has no bearing on whether it is a human life.

I'm glad someone agrees with me. I struggle to see how the circumstances, as horrific as they are, would justify termination of a child who had nothing to do with the situation at hand.

It is not circumstances, but a woman's live. It is easy to reduce this to something "principled" when you are a man and will never be in a similar situation.

You got one ruined life vs. one terminated life. The ruined life belongs to a person already in existence and therefore takes precedence. Try to think of it as the girl being traumatized to the point of being mentally dead. You then got two kinds of killing to weigh against each other. This is the ethical dilemma. Forcing an 11 year old to carry her rapists child is cruel and inhuman. Far more than killing an unborn. Psychical death is not always the most horrible destiny. It is much too simplistic to view it that way.

Let me take the emphasized text as a starting point. We ask doctors to make triage decisions when multiple lives are at risk in accidents, disasters, and war. Doctors are trained to make these decisions in a way no one else is. This case should be no different. The Paraguayan law is flawed in that it fails to give doctors enough deference to make the decision either way, but as Ernest notes that might not have mattered in this case.

edit: I don't think Ernest is a troll.

I was hoping that no one on Atlas would defend this, but I guess I was wrong. Disgusting.

No real poster did, only a fake troll.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I don't believe rape or incest should make abortions easier to obtain.  The sole valid justification for restricting abortion is to protect what is considered to be a human life and no matter how vile the biological father is, that vileness has no bearing on whether it is a human life.

The girl is a human life as well, and it is reasonable to protect the human already in existence (with established emotional ties to other humans and importance in their lives) over the unborn. Bearing your rapists child is an extremely traumatic occurrence that is likely to inflict her for the rest of her life. Health of the mother includes mental health of the mother. It can not reasonably be limited to psychical health.

So despicable decision/law all around.

What makes you think an abortion would be less traumatic than a birth? 

Perhaps the fact that she chose the former.

Citation? I've seen in news reports that the mother was seeking to get her daughter an abortion, but they've been understandably silent about the girl. But that's rather beyond the point anyway. If 11 year olds were capable of making informed decisions about what would help them best recover from tragedies such as this, they wouldn't be minors. Obviously her thoughts about the situation should be given a high degree of importance in deciding what would be best for herself, but it can't be the sole factor, and unfortunately once the fetus reached the point of viability outside the womb, the decision needed to be tilted in favor of the unborn child. Had this case been brought to light earlier in the pregnancy then the case for abortion would have been stronger. Paraguay's law is too restrictive, but as I said before, I can't see where that was a factor in this case.

[MaxQue]

edit: I don't think Ernest is a troll.

I was hoping that no one on Atlas would defend this, but I guess I was wrong. Disgusting.

No real poster did, only a fake troll.

He is not, and he had a nuanced position. Was thinking of Seinfeld.

[Hatman 🍁]

People with penises are out of touch when it comes to women's issues. News at 11.

[CapoteMonster]

I don't believe rape or incest should make abortions easier to obtain.  The sole valid justification for restricting abortion is to protect what is considered to be a human life and no matter how vile the biological father is, that vileness has no bearing on whether it is a human life.

The girl is a human life as well, and it is reasonable to protect the human already in existence (with established emotional ties to other humans and importance in their lives) over the unborn. Bearing your rapists child is an extremely traumatic occurrence that is likely to inflict her for the rest of her life. Health of the mother includes mental health of the mother. It can not reasonably be limited to psychical health.

So despicable decision/law all around.

What makes you think an abortion would be less traumatic than a birth?  

Perhaps the fact that she chose the former.

Citation? I've seen in news reports that the mother was seeking to get her daughter an abortion, but they've been understandably silent about the girl. But that's rather beyond the point anyway. If 11 year olds were capable of making informed decisions about what would help them best recover from tragedies such as this, they wouldn't be minors. Obviously her thoughts about the situation should be given a high degree of importance in deciding what would be best for herself, but it can't be the sole factor, and unfortunately once the fetus reached the point of viability outside the womb, the decision needed to be tilted in favor of the unborn child. Had this case been brought to light earlier in the pregnancy then the case for abortion would have been stronger. Paraguay's law is too restrictive, but as I said before, I can't see where that was a factor in this case.

You have a remarkable amount of trust in a government with a notoriously bad police department and the state sanctioned doctors while the child was 10 years Old

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

So we should base policy upon the presumption of poor implementation? The main fault of Peruvian law enforcement in this case appears to be its attempt to blame the mother, but that has no bearing on whether an abortion should have been allowed in this case.

[CapoteMonster]

So we should base policy upon the presumption of poor implementation? The main fault of Peruvian law enforcement in this case appears to be its attempt to blame the mother, but that has no bearing on whether an abortion should have been allowed in this case.

Your missing part of my point, the officials could've made a decision quick enough to abort the pregnancy long before what we consider partial-birth abortion.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

So we should base policy upon the presumption of poor implementation? The main fault of Peruvian law enforcement in this case appears to be its attempt to blame the mother, but that has no bearing on whether an abortion should have been allowed in this case.

Your missing part of my point, the officials could've made a decision quick enough to abort the pregnancy long before what we consider partial-birth abortion.

Obviously you haven't been paying attention to the effort here to set the abortion limit at 20 weeks. The U.S. does not have one of the most permissive set of abortion rules in the world because a majority of Americans want it that way. By the time the pregnancy came to official attention, in most countries that allow abortion on demand at some stage of pregnancy, this pregnancy would have reached the point where it would have been allowed only if it was deemed needed to preserve the life of the mother.