Determining regulations of Constitutional Convention. (FINAL VOTE)
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  Determining regulations of Constitutional Convention. (FINAL VOTE)
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Author Topic: Determining regulations of Constitutional Convention. (FINAL VOTE)  (Read 7493 times)
Blair
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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2015, 10:27:02 AM »

It's abundantly clear that this, the worst Senate in Atlasian history, should not have a hand in choosing the delegates to such an important convention. It is also astounding that people are arguing that political parties should be excluded from the process because of their ideology - RIP democracy.

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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2015, 10:36:04 AM »
« Edited: August 29, 2015, 10:37:51 AM by Classic Conservative »

Please get out Blair, you aren't a citizen anymore of Atlasia
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2015, 10:39:27 AM »

It's abundantly clear that this, the worst Senate in Atlasian history, should not have a hand in choosing the delegates to such an important convention. It is also astounding that people are arguing that political parties should be excluded from the process because of their ideology - RIP democracy.
I know why you think this is the worst senate beacuse a its a conservative senate, b they won't dissolve Atlasia and come over to the great Mock Parliament.
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Blair
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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2015, 11:11:33 AM »

Please get out Blair, you aren't a citizen anymore of Atlasia

In all fairness I was actually elected to this chamber twice, and served as speaker. Lifelong membership FTW
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Oakvale
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« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2015, 11:18:11 AM »

It's abundantly clear that this, the worst Senate in Atlasian history, should not have a hand in choosing the delegates to such an important convention. It is also astounding that people are arguing that political parties should be excluded from the process because of their ideology - RIP democracy.
I know why you think this is the worst senate beacuse a its a conservative senate, b they won't dissolve Atlasia and come over to the great Mock Parliament.

I'm a proud member of the Conservative Party in South America, have been a rather conservative Supreme Court judge here, and more often than not voted with the right while in the Senate. Don't be silly.

I also don't want Atlasia to dissolve - I think it'd be terrific for all of us to establish diplomacy between the two nations - but I just think you need to realise the scale of the problem here.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2015, 01:50:30 PM »

The amendment has been adopted.

We might have an election for the delegates but don't forget that the results would be a lot biased toward the centre right. I think that federalists delegates (just an example) would receive a lot more votes than the Labor delegates, regardless of the fact that they are statistically tied in the voters count.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2015, 01:56:07 PM »

This Senate's decision to award Constitutional Convention delegates on the basis of political party membership is an entirely novel and disturbing trend in Atlasian history.  Never have partisan considerations played such a prominent role in reshaping Atlasian society.
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2015, 01:58:45 PM »

This Senate's decision to award Constitutional Convention delegates on the basis of political party membership is an entirely novel and disturbing trend in Atlasian history.  Never have partisan considerations played such a prominent role in reshaping Atlasian society.
This wasn't a conservative proposal remember it was Grifs idea
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2015, 02:13:25 PM »

This Senate's decision to award Constitutional Convention delegates on the basis of political party membership is an entirely novel and disturbing trend in Atlasian history.  Never have partisan considerations played such a prominent role in reshaping Atlasian society.

I agree totally.
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Leinad
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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2015, 03:27:14 PM »

as opposed to a governor or chairman choosing inactive hacks.

If it comes to Governor's choosing, I, for one, would not choose inactive people. I'd go as far as to choose someone who disagrees with me politically but is active over someone who agrees with me but is inactive. I would say that activity is far more important than ideology on real life issues (i.e. libertarian, conservative, liberal, socialist, moderate, etc.), although ideology on game reform (i.e. dissolutionist, reformer, radical, status quo-er, etc.). I mean, stuff like tax policy, gay marriage, abortion, military spending, and the like won't be talked about here, it's more about the game's structure.

I'm inclined to say that the ConCon should be as representative as possible of atlasia as it is now, so I think that carving out different amounts of delegates for different interest groups like the senate or the governors or the parties should be avoided.

Why not just have 25 delegates decided by a whole nation vote?

I get what you're saying, but that won't work. I'll explain why: you simply can't have a 25-winner election. How will you do it? STV? That won't work--a ballot where you rank more than 25 candidates? Nope. Or are you thinking party lists? That puts even more power in the hands of the party chairs than partisan appointments ever would.

Even if you don't like appointments (I do--active elected officials can better choose who's best for the ConCon than hordes of inactive voters; then again, I'd want there to be some chosen by popular vote), it needs to be split into regions or even groups of 2-3 regions to elect the delegates. Unless you have an idea of how a 25-winner election could work...
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rpryor03
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« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2015, 04:29:46 PM »

A reminder that this thread exists: General Senate Discussion. Also, seeing no objection to Cris's amendment, if the Speaker will declare it passed, I make the following motion to amend Section 1.1 to the following:

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Senator Cris
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2015, 01:39:51 AM »

Senators have 24 hours to object.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2015, 02:43:14 AM »

With regards to my partisan affiliation proposal: there has likely never been a time in which the game's officeholders and, to a lesser extent, even the Census, has been more out of line with what the long-term and aggregate ideological nature of the game tend to be. In order for the ConCon reforms to pass when they come up for a vote, ideological balance that is at least somewhat similar to the composition of the game's citizens will be needed in order to ensure that the proposals that emerge are not ideologically-slanted or that entire segments of the game feel left out of the process. Furthermore, there are so relatively few active people in the game right now that I am more or less confident that the delegates will constitute roughly the same individuals with or without the provision - this is merely a backstop/guarantee that that is the case. 
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bore
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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2015, 03:45:06 AM »

You could have a fairly simple FPTP system where a certain number of votes (say, 4) was required to become a delegate (that would even give an incentive to get as many people involved in the process as possible.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2015, 06:40:26 AM »

To clarify: my amendment was only a first step. It can be changed with amendments.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2015, 10:31:10 PM »

Indeed we are not yet wetted to a single approach at this juncture. It is merely that most agree that it is necessary that the left have a seat at the table, lest they be left out and likely drift away from the game. How we acheive that is still up for debate for right now.

It's abundantly clear that this, the worst Senate in Atlasian history, should not have a hand in choosing the delegates to such an important convention. It is also astounding that people are arguing that political parties should be excluded from the process because of their ideology - RIP democracy.
I know why you think this is the worst senate beacuse a its a conservative senate, b they won't dissolve Atlasia and come over to the great Mock Parliament.

I'm a proud member of the Conservative Party in South America, have been a rather conservative Supreme Court judge here, and more often than not voted with the right while in the Senate. Don't be silly.

Except for those two times when you voted Labor in at least two elections that decided the balance of power at time when TNF was dominating the agenda. Tongue
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2015, 11:36:21 AM »

The amendment has been adopted.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2015, 05:09:07 PM »

With regards to my partisan affiliation proposal: there has likely never been a time in which the game's officeholders and, to a lesser extent, even the Census, has been more out of line with what the long-term and aggregate ideological nature of the game tend to be. In order for the ConCon reforms to pass when they come up for a vote, ideological balance that is at least somewhat similar to the composition of the game's citizens will be needed in order to ensure that the proposals that emerge are not ideologically-slanted or that entire segments of the game feel left out of the process. Furthermore, there are so relatively few active people in the game right now that I am more or less confident that the delegates will constitute roughly the same individuals with or without the provision - this is merely a backstop/guarantee that that is the case. 

     In pure candidness, the Senate being out of step with the public is a longstanding problem in Atlasia. I also favor a system that privileges a diversity of views, lest the Convention just produce some unworkable proposal that is soundly voted down.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2015, 12:02:16 PM »
« Edited: September 02, 2015, 07:43:31 AM by Simfan34 »

Voting on delegates would simply bog things down. Have the Senate select 10 delegates and the regions select 2 each, with a President of the Convention serving as a tie-breaker. It'd verge on the absurd if we let the organisation of the convention drag on for nearly as long as it took us just to get to this point.

What's needed is radical reform: dissolution of the present legislature, the election of a two-month, caretaker administration, a complete legislative reset, and a completely new and streamlined constitution at the minimum providing for regional consolidation, strong game simulation, and a focus on legislative flexibility and efficiency. Chuck everything out the window and start over-- no mucking about.
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« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2015, 03:46:47 PM »
« Edited: September 01, 2015, 03:49:25 PM by dallasfan65 »

Please get out Blair, you aren't a citizen anymore of Atlasia

Are you trying to say he should NeverAgain comment here?
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bore
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« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2015, 07:29:00 AM »

I guess I'll echo simfan now. I don't especially like this way of doing things, but speed is of the essence and, as griffin points out, the composition will probably be roughly the same anyway. Let's just get this done.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2015, 07:39:15 AM »

It's abundantly clear that this, the worst Senate in Atlasian history, should not have a hand in choosing the delegates to such an important convention. It is also astounding that people are arguing that political parties should be excluded from the process because of their ideology - RIP democracy.
I have to echo this - using Griffins seat distribution plan, you could have:

Fed - 36/5.25 = 3.13 * 2 = 6.26 = 6 representatives
Lab - 35/5.25 = 3.04 * 2 = 6.09 = 6 representatives
TPP - 15/5.25 = 1.30 * 2 = 2.61 = 3 representatives
CR - 10/5.25 = 0.87 * 2 = 1.74 = 2 representatives
ANS - 8/5.25 = 0.70 * 2 = 1.39 = 1 representative
DR - 7/5.25 = 0.61 * 2 = 1.22 = 1 representative
NNP - 4/5.25 = 0.35 * 2 = 0.70 = 1 representative

This brings the amount of people represented by a party involved to 78%, up from 65% - without your concern that two parties could bring down the proposals, as only two ANS/NNP members are involved. I should add that I know my party, the NNP, would want to work constructively with the Atlasian Senate to push through changes that would benefit the game.
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Leinad
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« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2015, 08:53:13 AM »

Voting on delegates would simply bog things down. Have the Senate select 10 delegates and the regions select 2 each, with a President of the Convention serving as a tie-breaker. It'd verge on the absurd if we let the organisation of the convention drag on for nearly as long as it took us just to get to this point.

What's needed is radical reform: dissolution of the present legislature, the election of a two-month, caretaker administration, a complete legislative reset, and a completely new and streamlined constitution at the minimum providing for regional consolidation, strong game simulation, and a focus on legislative flexibility and efficiency. Chuck everything out the window and start over-- no mucking about.

I guess I agree and disagree with that sentiment. Yes, we shouldn't get bogged down with stuff we can do quickly, but I think it might be more damaging to rush through things. It's not like Atlasia will fade away if it takes us two extra weeks to do something right. This is the same problem that happened in the start of the Mock Parliament--debate is stifled and alternate ideas are immediately rejected in a frantic effort to avoid people losing interest, as if everyone has the attention span of a hamster.

Atlasia's not dead, it didn't die when we gathered signatures for the ConCon, and it won't die in the preparation for the ConCon. I doubt any of the active people (myself, Cris, Truman, Kalwejt, other esteemed members of this body, and all the general cliched names listed whenever people list active Atlasians) will quit in the time it takes to make sure the Convention starts out on the right foot.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2015, 08:57:49 AM »

It's abundantly clear that this, the worst Senate in Atlasian history, should not have a hand in choosing the delegates to such an important convention. It is also astounding that people are arguing that political parties should be excluded from the process because of their ideology - RIP democracy.
I have to echo this - using Griffins seat distribution plan, you could have:

Fed - 36/5.25 = 3.13 * 2 = 6.26 = 6 representatives
Lab - 35/5.25 = 3.04 * 2 = 6.09 = 6 representatives
TPP - 15/5.25 = 1.30 * 2 = 2.61 = 3 representatives
CR - 10/5.25 = 0.87 * 2 = 1.74 = 2 representatives
ANS - 8/5.25 = 0.70 * 2 = 1.39 = 1 representative
DR - 7/5.25 = 0.61 * 2 = 1.22 = 1 representative
NNP - 4/5.25 = 0.35 * 2 = 0.70 = 1 representative

This brings the amount of people represented by a party involved to 78%, up from 65% - without your concern that two parties could bring down the proposals, as only two ANS/NNP members are involved. I should add that I know my party, the NNP, would want to work constructively with the Atlasian Senate to push through changes that would benefit the game.

This is exceedingly disturbing.  You cannot tell me that you are seriously considering apportioning seats by party to a Constitutional Convention.  Are you trying to run the game into the ground?!  What about independents?  What about minor parties?  Atlasia has long had a storied tradition of both.  This is a new constitution... the idea that partisan considerations should or would play a role in constructing a document that is supposed to be independent of and superordinate to day-to-day political considerations is repugnant.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2015, 10:00:06 AM »

It's abundantly clear that this, the worst Senate in Atlasian history, should not have a hand in choosing the delegates to such an important convention. It is also astounding that people are arguing that political parties should be excluded from the process because of their ideology - RIP democracy.
I have to echo this - using Griffins seat distribution plan, you could have:

Fed - 36/5.25 = 3.13 * 2 = 6.26 = 6 representatives
Lab - 35/5.25 = 3.04 * 2 = 6.09 = 6 representatives
TPP - 15/5.25 = 1.30 * 2 = 2.61 = 3 representatives
CR - 10/5.25 = 0.87 * 2 = 1.74 = 2 representatives
ANS - 8/5.25 = 0.70 * 2 = 1.39 = 1 representative
DR - 7/5.25 = 0.61 * 2 = 1.22 = 1 representative
NNP - 4/5.25 = 0.35 * 2 = 0.70 = 1 representative

This brings the amount of people represented by a party involved to 78%, up from 65% - without your concern that two parties could bring down the proposals, as only two ANS/NNP members are involved. I should add that I know my party, the NNP, would want to work constructively with the Atlasian Senate to push through changes that would benefit the game.

This is exceedingly disturbing.  You cannot tell me that you are seriously considering apportioning seats by party to a Constitutional Convention.  Are you trying to run the game into the ground?!  What about independents?  What about minor parties?  Atlasia has long had a storied tradition of both.  This is a new constitution... the idea that partisan considerations should or would play a role in constructing a document that is supposed to be independent of and superordinate to day-to-day political considerations is repugnant.
I was responding to Griffin's proposal ("...using Griffins seat distribution plan, you could have...") - which clearly indicates a partisan plan:

Partisan affiliation within the game should play at least some role in how delegates are selected; otherwise, this will quickly end up being a right-wing circle jerk. I'd propose a 10-member minimum for major party status in this criteria, with 10/20 delegates being selected by the parties. There are 96 citizens belonging to parties with 10 or more members, making the math somewhat simple:

Fed: 36/9.6 = 3.75
Lab: 35/9.6 = 3.64
TPP: 15/9.6 = 1.56
CR: 10/9.6 = 1.04

Every party would need at least one representative, and since Fed & Lab each are the 2 parties closest to rounding up, you'd end up with:

Fed: 4
Lab: 4
TPP: 1
CR: 1



With the remaining 10, you could either allow each Governor to appoint 2 delegates, or you could allow the Senate to appoint 5 delegates and allow each Governor to appoint 1 delegate, for a total of 20 delegates.
It's a suggestion to take sure that no party is left out - if representatives are chosen based on party membership - with five independents/low member parties being appointed to make 25 representatives. (I missed that out - I was in a rush, as I needed to go somewhere). I simply used the RG's list as a quick guide on the matter.

This will ensure that the ConCon involves the views of all the people in the game - instead of being potentially lopsided towards a certain ideology.

However, I'm not advocating this exact plan - however I wouldn't be happy if a partisan model is used without including all parties.
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