Opinion of compulsory military service

[Mr. Smith]

Absolutely 100% morally opposed.

[dead0man]

I definitely think that boot camp would be a great experience for all of us young people to have to go through.

Most American 18 year olds couldn't do it.  Some for physical reasons, most for mental reasons.  It would have to be altered, a lot, from the way the military does it.  BMT (Basic Military Training) can't make the coward strong unless he/she want's to be made strong.  Forcing people to do it won't matter because you can't force the will into them.  It would help a few, some would even take to it and enlist, but most would be miserable and get little out of it (other than a hatred for men in wide hats and reveille.....I still hate reveille a bit and that was 21 years ago.)

[Antonio the Sixth]

Absolutely 100% morally opposed.

[Leinad]

NEVER. Not for ANY circumstances. If the government is failing to get volunteers, um, maybe it's just a crap war?

Maybe it isn't slavery, per se, in that it's temporary, but it's nearly as bad. People are forced, against their own desires, to risk their life. Many people who could've lived full lives died young because of this horrendous practice, and the fact that some otherwise (presumably) sane people think this is okay shocks me.

The foundation of a stable society is consent, and the freedom to make your own choices. The government doesn't have the right to make people's choices for them--the only rights the government legitimately has are granted by the individual people, to be used with their consent, not the other way around. This argument is far more true when you factor in that this involves a chance of death.

Seriously, anyone in favor of this, in any case, ever, must either be practising intense intellectual dishonesty (i.e. okay with people making their own choices for almost everything except putting themselves in harm's way for a government they may loath) or they're morons (i.e. okay with the government forcing people to do, well, anything).

Maybe I'm just a one-person echo-chamber. Let's see some dissenting opinions:

Lean-FP.

Mainly because i've read about how compulsory military service can bring together people of different social backgrounds. And allow for networking and some say that social skills for many had improved since they were forced to be together.

I support it in times if trouble, like now. Lack of military service has much our generation a bunch of pussies with no appreciation of what our troops sacrafice for us.

...I'm not sure what's worse: the idea that the government needs to forcibly separate people from their lives to "network" with "people of different social backgrounds," the idea that the government needs to forcibly separate people from their lives to make them less..."pussies," or the fact that real people (apparently) have these opinions...

[RFayette]

I definitely think that boot camp would be a great experience for all of us young people to have to go through.

Most American 18 year olds couldn't do it.  Some for physical reasons, most for mental reasons.  It would have to be altered, a lot, from the way the military does it.  BMT (Basic Military Training) can't make the coward strong unless he/she want's to be made strong.  Forcing people to do it won't matter because you can't force the will into them.  It would help a few, some would even take to it and enlist, but most would be miserable and get little out of it (other than a hatred for men in wide hats and reveille.....I still hate reveille a bit and that was 21 years ago.)

During Vietnam, I suspect a huge chunk of kids "not ready" for combat had to go through it.  Was it dumbed down then?  Of course, the cohort of 18-year-olds today is far more "wussified" than 40 years ago, so that would be a problem, but it seems like it would be worth a shot.  If it can be done with reasonable success in juvenile detention centers, I think it can be done on a wider scale and would at least be worth a try. 


Personally, I'd be 100% (probably more like 120%) in favor of compulsory national service, with the choice of civilian or military.  But I think requiring military boot camp-style training regardless of the choice would be a fantastic idea, to encourage positive character attributes like self-discipline, obedience, loyalty, hard work, perseverance, and mental toughness.. 

The other reason I find compulsory military (or national) service, whether military, or civilian, alluring is that it could increase social cohesion and improve employment prospects by effectively "guaranteeing" two years of work experience and allow everyone to have a sense of national identity and pride.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

To be honest, you're coming across very "le wrong generation" at the moment.

"DAE Remember When Instead Of Getting "Swag" and Being Wusses, Kids Shot Gooks And Got PTSD? WHAT HAPPENED AMERICA???"

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Absolutely 100% morally opposed.

[TDAS04]

Absolutely 100% morally opposed.

[Antonio the Sixth]

But I think requiring military boot camp-style training regardless of the choice would be a fantastic idea, to encourage positive character attributes like self-discipline, obedience, loyalty, hard work, perseverance, and mental toughness..

These (or at least the way the military usually conceives them) are all awful things.

[WVdemocrat]

I'm going to give a very candid answer.

I oppose compulsory military service because I'm a little bitch.

Honestly though, we need our soldiers to be people committed to the fight, not terrified civilians who have been thrust into a combat situation. I play Call of Duty, I don't fight wars. But I have great admiration and respect for those who do. They are far braver than I. In a war, you need soldiers with the wherewithal to remain calm and in control in a combat situation. That is not me. And that is probably not a majority of citizens of this nation. Not everyone is a soldier. And that's okay.

I also don't happen to be fond of the implications of compulsory military service on freedom.

[Bigby]

I'm going to give a very candid answer.

I oppose compulsory military service because I'm a little bitch.

Honestly though, we need our soldiers to be people committed to the fight, not terrified civilians who have been thrust into a combat situation. I play Call of Duty, I don't fight wars. But I have great admiration and respect for those who do. They are far braver than I. In a war, you need soldiers with the wherewithal to remain calm and in control in a combat situation. That is not me. And that is probably not a majority of citizens of this nation. Not everyone is a soldier. And that's okay.

I also don't happen to be fond of the implications of compulsory military service on freedom.

Pfft, don't doubt yourself. You may turn out to be a big bitch.

[RFayette]

But I think requiring military boot camp-style training regardless of the choice would be a fantastic idea, to encourage positive character attributes like self-discipline, obedience, loyalty, hard work, perseverance, and mental toughness..

These (or at least the way the military usually conceives them) are all awful things.

Expand on that idea please?  The military's structure and emphasis on obedience does a whole lot of good in turning people around, having known a few people with 1.X GPAs in high school do great in college in a useful subject like engineering after a stint in the military.  The work ethic, physical fitness, etc. promoted by the military seem like great skills.

[Antonio the Sixth]

But I think requiring military boot camp-style training regardless of the choice would be a fantastic idea, to encourage positive character attributes like self-discipline, obedience, loyalty, hard work, perseverance, and mental toughness..

These (or at least the way the military usually conceives them) are all awful things.

Expand on that idea please?  The military's structure and emphasis on obedience does a whole lot of good in turning people around, having known a few people with 1.X GPAs in high school do great in college in a useful subject like engineering after a stint in the military.  The work ethic, physical fitness, etc. promoted by the military seem like great skills.

I don't want our kids to blindly follow some constantly-screaming, self-important, testosterone-filled cretin's orders just because he happens to be their hierarchical superior. I don't want them to endure constant physical and psychological abuse just so that they can learn how to kill and not be killed. I don't want those who happen to be physically weak, wimpy, socially awkward, or simply uninterested in all this stupidity to be mercilessly bullied and humiliated. I don't want them to forge the extremely unhealthy sort of "camaraderie" that this sort of experience leads to.

Some people want to go through this, and it is their right to. Those people will jump at the opportunity to enlist. That's why most countries have a professional military, and it's better for everyone involved.

[RFayette]

But I think requiring military boot camp-style training regardless of the choice would be a fantastic idea, to encourage positive character attributes like self-discipline, obedience, loyalty, hard work, perseverance, and mental toughness..

These (or at least the way the military usually conceives them) are all awful things.

Expand on that idea please?  The military's structure and emphasis on obedience does a whole lot of good in turning people around, having known a few people with 1.X GPAs in high school do great in college in a useful subject like engineering after a stint in the military.  The work ethic, physical fitness, etc. promoted by the military seem like great skills.

I don't want our kids to blindly follow some constantly-screaming, self-important, testosterone-filled cretin's orders just because he happens to be their hierarchical superior. I don't want them to endure constant physical and psychological abuse just so that they can learn how to kill and not be killed. I don't want those who happen to be physically weak, wimpy, socially awkward, or simply uninterested in all this stupidity to be mercilessly bullied and humiliated. I don't want them to forge the extremely unhealthy sort of "camaraderie" that this sort of experience leads to.

Some people want to go through this, and it is their right to. Those people will jump at the opportunity to enlist. That's why most countries have a professional military, and it's better for everyone involved.

To be blunt, your description of the military seems like a right-wing caricature of what liberals think about the armed forces. 

Sigh.....the brave men (and women) who put their life on the line and train great soldiers for battle shouldn't be belittled with such language.  Sure, maybe they're not as eloquent with essays or as adept with differential equations, but that kind of language is just demeaning. They aren't cretins.  They're heroes, and they have tons of soft skills, like leadership ability, that many very intelligent people lack.  Yes, the drill seargants could learn something from the nerds, but I would say it applies vice versa just as much, if not more.


As someone who could definitely be described as a socially inept, "wimpy" nerd (far moreso in the past than now), it seems like you assume those character traits are static.  Negative character traits can be improved upon, and I've been lifting weights, working out a lot, and reading The Red Pill to try to actively improve myself (no, I don't agree with all of its philosophy, but it still has useful advice) to try to improve my social skills and physical ability.  And that's why I think military discipline would help the nerds and deviants alike.  I tend to think that the values of loyalty, love of country, and self-discipline are things that are sorely lacking in this country.  And frankly, I'm a little surprised why liberals would be so opposed to such a measure - it's incredibly egalitarian, helps increase communication between different social classes and ethnic groups, and would generally increase societal cohesion.  

[they don't love you like i love you]

The short answer is no.

I'll also point out that even ignoring the obvious issues as to why I'm opposed even the military leadership would be strongly opposed and seem to think it would harm morale and readiness...wwhich is actually probably true.

[Antonio the Sixth]

But I think requiring military boot camp-style training regardless of the choice would be a fantastic idea, to encourage positive character attributes like self-discipline, obedience, loyalty, hard work, perseverance, and mental toughness..

These (or at least the way the military usually conceives them) are all awful things.

Expand on that idea please?  The military's structure and emphasis on obedience does a whole lot of good in turning people around, having known a few people with 1.X GPAs in high school do great in college in a useful subject like engineering after a stint in the military.  The work ethic, physical fitness, etc. promoted by the military seem like great skills.

I don't want our kids to blindly follow some constantly-screaming, self-important, testosterone-filled cretin's orders just because he happens to be their hierarchical superior. I don't want them to endure constant physical and psychological abuse just so that they can learn how to kill and not be killed. I don't want those who happen to be physically weak, wimpy, socially awkward, or simply uninterested in all this stupidity to be mercilessly bullied and humiliated. I don't want them to forge the extremely unhealthy sort of "camaraderie" that this sort of experience leads to.

Some people want to go through this, and it is their right to. Those people will jump at the opportunity to enlist. That's why most countries have a professional military, and it's better for everyone involved.

To be blunt, your description of the military seems like a right-wing caricature of what liberals think about the armed forces. 

Sigh.....the brave men (and women) who put their life on the line and train great soldiers for battle shouldn't be belittled with such language.  Sure, maybe they're not as eloquent with essays or as adept with differential equations, but that kind of language is just demeaning. They aren't cretins.  They're heroes, and they have tons of soft skills, like leadership ability, that many very intelligent people lack.  Yes, the drill seargants could learn something from the nerds, but I would say it applies vice versa just as much, if not more.

I know most officers aren't like that, but the kind of person I described definitely exists in large numbers among their ranks, and their influence is easy to spot. It's also ridiculous to say people are "heroes" just for serving in the military, or even in combat. There are many reasons that could push someone to go to war, bravery and abnegation only being two of them (many just seek the thrill, or simply and much more sadly, have nothing else to do). You are a hero if you actually do something heroic, not by belonging to a particular occupation or group.

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"Red Pill" is garbage and you should run away from it as fast as you can. Besides, I don't see "nerdiness" or "wimpiness" as inherently bad character traits. Sure, they can be taken to unhealthy extremes, but so can the traits associated with the so-called "alphas" - and the latter tend to become much more harmful to society when taken to their extremes. Nerds, for all their flaws, usually don't push around or screw over other people.

As for social cohesion, I'm not really interested in the highly hierarchical kind that the military fosters, in which all soldiers are equals only in that they're equally bound to blindly obey their superior and follow a strict discipline. That's equality in oppression, which has little in common with equality in freedom that a progressive seeks. Besides, let's not pretend that racism and classism don't exist in the military. And how about we address the elephant in the room that is the sexism that thoroughly permeates military culture?

[ingemann]

I'm rather neutral, beside thinking that the people describe it as slavery are complete moron.

conscription armies are useful for states, which need large cheap armies, they're not really inferior to "volunteer" armies, in fact volunteer armies tend to do worse when the states have a similar population and economy.

But back to conscription, a country need to protect itself and its citizens, and sometimes conscription is the best way to do this. If Finland hadn't had a conscription army, it would today likely be a post-communist state rebuilding after 45 year of occupation and Siberia would be full of the graves of dead Finns. Do USA need such a army today? Not really, it would make little sense.

[Gass3268]

My gut reaction is hell no, but I think that we would be less willing to go into crazy wars if everyone was participating. Obviously this would mean no deferments and means for the rich/powerful to get their children, which means it wouldn't happen.

[dead0man]

I know most officers aren't like that,

Officers don't train troops in boot camp, and despite being around them constantly for the last 20 plus years, I've never heard one scream.  Being college educated (and officers), they tend to be calm and decidedly non-testosterone-filled cretin's.  Self important, sure, but that's hardly unique.  Yes, the people doing the training tend to yell a bit, (though screaming was right out), especially in the first week or so, and are certainly testosterone-filled (even the lady trainers....maybe more so), but it isn't anything like Hollywood would lead you to believe (granted, I did USAF boot camp, but the other branches (save the Marines) aren't what you'd assume either).

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Is it?  There are, for sure, plenty of meat heads in all the branches...more so in the Marines and Army, obviously, but even there they are in the minority.  Believe it or not, modern western  militaries don't want or need to be filled with angry, kill happy, men.  Having a few around is nice, you kind of need those guys sometimes, but for the most part it is not accurate picture of the people that make up modern, western militaries.

[pho]

Some people are not cut out for military service. I am a 5'6", 110 pound woman who can't follow instructions whatsoever (I get confused very very easily). I would get killed and my life would be wasted, along with tens of thousands of other inferior mental and physical specimen.

Besides that, compulsory labor of any kind is rather fascist .Completely oppose.

[Torie]

Unnecessary coercion and a profoundly dumb idea these days. Now war is high tech, not about a mass number of soldiers, and much more high skilled. In some European countries with a draft, like The Netherlands, my impression is that military service is basically like a summer camp, and the military is not really fit to do much of anything anyway. And in a major war, that will probably end with a nuclear holocaust now. Major wars requiring the entire nation to go on a war footing are a thing of the past (putting aside wars between smaller countries, or a major country against a small one, rather than major powers).

[they don't love you like i love you]

Unnecessary coercion and a profoundly dumb idea these days. Now war is high tech, not about a mass number of soldiers, and much more high skilled. In some European countries with a draft, like The Netherlands, my impression is that military service is basically like a summer camp, and the military is not really fit to do much of anything anyway. And in a major war, that will probably end with a nuclear holocaust now. Major wars requiring the entire nation to go on a war footing are a thing of the past (putting aside wars between smaller countries, or a major country against a small one, rather than major powers).

The Netherlands currently does not have conscription: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_Netherlands

[SNJ1985]

Personally, I'd be 100% (probably more like 120%) in favor of compulsory national service, with the choice of civilian or military.  But I think requiring military boot camp-style training regardless of the choice would be a fantastic idea, to encourage positive character attributes like self-discipline, obedience, loyalty, hard work, perseverance, and mental toughness.. 

The other reason I find compulsory military (or national) service, whether military, or civilian, alluring is that it could increase social cohesion and improve employment prospects by effectively "guaranteeing" two years of work experience and allow everyone to have a sense of national identity and pride.

I agree. I find the Swiss model appealing.

That said, though, I support it only in theory. I don't trust the current U.S. government or elites, so a lot would have to change in this country for me to support introducing it here.