Opinion of this proposal
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Question: Opinion of this proposal?
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Author Topic: Opinion of this proposal  (Read 1376 times)
DavidB.
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« on: August 27, 2015, 09:34:02 AM »
« edited: August 27, 2015, 09:38:39 AM by DavidB. »

Many women feel harassed by sexually charged comments they get when walking on the steet, often from young guys hanging around in groups. Rotterdam's biggest party, Leefbaar Rotterdam ("Liveable Rotterdam"), wants to introduce fines for catcalling women ("psssh, hottie!", but also less "flattering" comments) on the street. Leefbaar is aware of the fact that this is hardly enforceable.

Freedom proposal or horrible proposal?

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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2015, 09:45:37 AM »

FP (not a pig)
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dead0man
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2015, 09:58:08 AM »

Obviously women (or men for that matter) shouldn't feel threatened while walking down the sidewalk in the middle of a Tuesday afternoon, but where do you draw the line between bad flirting and harassment?  Seems to me the unattractive in whatever culture does this are going to fall ill of this law much more often than the attractive....especially if the bar is "I feel harassed, so it's harassment."

All that said, I probably wouldn't be against this.  So many men don't seem to understand how their actions can make women feel.  Laws like this, even if rarely/never enforced still might make a few men stop.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2015, 10:20:00 AM »
« Edited: August 27, 2015, 10:33:54 AM by DavidB. »

I also think this is an FP for reasons dead0man already pointed out. These kind of comments are never really intended for "flirting": there is a clear difference between a genuine compliment and "hey, nice a$$", and it's obvious that a genuine compliment isn't problematic. Rude comments are, however, meant to make people feel uncomfortable, and refraining from doing so has to do with basic decency. Once I was in the city with a friend of mine and he suddenly made some inappropriate comments to a girl with a short skirt. I was utterly shocked and embarrassed by this. I wouldn't even think of doing something like that (normal).

By the way, the Leefbaar proposal has been called "xenophobic", which is ridiculous, considering the fact that 1. non-ethnically-Dutch women are just as often victims of sexual harassment and 2. ethnically Dutch guys catcalling will obviously also be fined.

This law might make people think twice.
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sparkey
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2015, 12:22:44 PM »

Major HP. Harassment laws are fine when harassment is reasonably defined to mean repeated unwanted advances, but this is taking it way too far. Think about the practical ramifications of this proposal. You want court cases over whether or not a comment made in passing was fineable?

Y'know, it is possible to influence culture without making everything you don't like about it illegal.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2015, 01:10:01 PM »

Ridiculous and unenforceable.
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politicus
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2015, 01:30:16 PM »

FP, would at least send a clear signal of what is socially acceptable, which often changes social norms along the way (though not always).
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TDAS04
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2015, 01:51:52 PM »

FP.
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TNF
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2015, 02:50:32 PM »

If a law is unenforceable, what's the point of having it on the books? This seems like just another way for the state to extract revenue from the public, and furthermore if it is enforced, it will be enforced unevenly. In the United States, such a proposal would impact those that are already the disproportionate victims of police harassment, black and brown working class people, moreso than it would actually 'protect' women walking down the street from catcalling.

If you're actually interested in preventing this kind of behavior (which stems from the subordinate position of women in class society), you'd be better off addressing the structural issues that create male chauvinism, not just throwing a band-aid on it and calling everything well and good. This might sate your guilty liberal conscience, but it won't ultimately address the root cause of the problem, and in the end, it will probably make things worse.

Horrible Proposal.
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politicus
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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2015, 05:03:26 PM »

If a law is unenforceable, what's the point of having it on the books?

It marks society values and often influences norms. As an example: Bans on spanking children have led to a drastic fall in the legitimacy of this practice in a number of countries.
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shua
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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2015, 05:11:46 PM »

FP, would at least send a clear signal of what is socially acceptable, which often changes social norms along the way (though not always).


Laws with inherently vague standards attached to them are not good ways to send a clear signal.

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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2015, 05:22:22 PM »

Cautiously FP.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2015, 05:28:54 PM »

FP, would at least send a clear signal of what is socially acceptable, which often changes social norms along the way (though not always).


Laws with inherently vague standards attached to them are not good ways to send a clear signal.

The standards aren't vague. Any woman can tell the difference between actual compliments and harassment.
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shua
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« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2015, 05:55:49 PM »

FP, would at least send a clear signal of what is socially acceptable, which often changes social norms along the way (though not always).


Laws with inherently vague standards attached to them are not good ways to send a clear signal.

The standards aren't vague. Any woman can tell the difference between actual compliments and harassment.

Even acknowledging a woman's infallible capacity for categorization of communications, can a man also tell this difference?
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Clark Kent
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« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2015, 06:17:36 PM »

Just because you shouldn't say something doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to say it. This seems like an infringement on free speech. HP
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2015, 06:33:49 PM »

FP, would at least send a clear signal of what is socially acceptable, which often changes social norms along the way (though not always).


Laws with inherently vague standards attached to them are not good ways to send a clear signal.

The standards aren't vague. Any woman can tell the difference between actual compliments and harassment.

Even acknowledging a woman's infallible capacity for categorization of communications, can a man also tell this difference?

Even if he can't tell the difference on his own, he could ask a woman what is OK and what isn't.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2015, 07:47:09 PM »

I agree with everything TNF said.
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shua
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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2015, 08:23:38 PM »

FP, would at least send a clear signal of what is socially acceptable, which often changes social norms along the way (though not always).


Laws with inherently vague standards attached to them are not good ways to send a clear signal.

The standards aren't vague. Any woman can tell the difference between actual compliments and harassment.

Even acknowledging a woman's infallible capacity for categorization of communications, can a man also tell this difference?

Even if he can't tell the difference on his own, he could ask a woman what is OK and what isn't.

Yeah, I'm sure women all have exactly the same opinion on these things.
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Bigby
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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2015, 08:34:43 PM »

If a law is unenforceable, what's the point of having it on the books? This seems like just another way for the state to extract revenue from the public, and furthermore if it is enforced, it will be enforced unevenly. In the United States, such a proposal would impact those that are already the disproportionate victims of police harassment, black and brown working class people, moreso than it would actually 'protect' women walking down the street from catcalling.

If you're actually interested in preventing this kind of behavior (which stems from the subordinate position of women in class society), you'd be better off addressing the structural issues that create male chauvinism, not just throwing a band-aid on it and calling everything well and good. This might sate your guilty liberal conscience, but it won't ultimately address the root cause of the problem, and in the end, it will probably make things worse.

Horrible Proposal.

I always find it interesting on how we come to the same conclusion on issues like these despite our differing beliefs and thought patterns. I consider this HP too.
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Orthogonian Society Treasurer
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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2015, 10:45:34 PM »

Nanny state bull at its worst.

HP.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2015, 10:50:10 PM »


Yes. Stupid proposals like this are why I refuse to associate myself with modern feminists.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2015, 04:47:28 AM »

Completely awful. Catcalling works 75% of the time. I support it
Yeah? You score 75% of the time if you say "pssshhh... eyyy slut"? Because that's what most of these guys in Rotterdam do.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2015, 03:56:37 PM »

fp (not a gross misogynist)
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ingemann
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« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2015, 04:50:39 PM »

FP people have a right not be harassed on the street.
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Horus
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« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2015, 06:04:16 PM »

Absolutely horrific idea, and a classic example of European overreach.
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