Which of the Nordic countries is most conservative?

[TDAS04]

What do you think?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Iceland has been more dominated by conservatives historically - its left has often been dividided while the Independence Party mops up.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Probably Finland.

[politicus]

Depends how you define conservative, but small c- conservative from most to least today:

1. Finland
2. Norway
3. Iceland
4. Sweden
5. Denmark

[politicus]

Also, by only including sovereign states you leave out the obvious answer: the Faroe Islands.

[politicus]

To those voting Iceland in this thread.

You are talking about a country that:

- elected a stand-up comedian and bunch of punk rockers to led their capital
- elected the worlds first Lesbian Prime Minister
- has the worlds strongest Pirate Party, which has been polling at 30%+ for months
- unlike all other Nordic countries does not have a Bible Belt
- has the strongest and most militant atheist movement in Scandinavia
- has the second strongest feminist movement after Sweden
- has the highest gender equality in the world
- there 70%+ of the population lives in a large city (by Nordic standards)
- where culturally leftist parties are currently polling around 65% combined
- unlike all other Nordic countries doesn't have a right wing populist party (at least not one poling at more than 1.5%)
- doesn't have a SoCon or Christian Democratic party

Icelanders like their cultural traditions and they have historically preferred a Conservative party, but they are also a fairly radical bunch in many areas.

[politicus]

LOL at someone actually voting for Sweden.

I did the cultural conservatism rating above. The current politically right wing rating from most to least is:

1. Finland
2. Denmark
3. Iceland (#)
4. Norway
5. Sweden

This is more tricky than the culture thing because there is still a stronger element of Liberalism in the Danish right wing than in the other countries, so whether being to the right of Sweden and Norway in itself makes us more Conservative is up for debate. Note that I consider the Norwegian Progress Party as de facto a rather generic right wing party by now, although still populist. Denmark at this point having the most comprehensive universal welfare state is then a further complication. "Leftist" Sweden has cut far deeper than us.


Size of the welfare state:

1. Denmark
2. Norway
3. Sweden
4. Finland/Iceland

But is having a large universal welfare state necessarily at odds with being Conservative in a Nordic context? (DPP at least claims it isn't..).

# It makes no sense comparing contemporary Icelandic politics to the pre-crash era. The balance is changed and IP has stabilized on a level far below their historical strength. The 2013 PP craze was a populist backlash after disappointed expectations and a dream of an easy way out of the debt, not an expression of an ideological swing to the right - the centre-right government quickly became unpopular and has remained so despite delivering decent economic results because most voters simply disagree with it on fundamental areas.
Iceland has gotten a radical streak and may well be to the left of Norway right now, but since the traditional left is so discredited and 10% of voters are still members of IP (far stronger than any mainland Conservative - or other - party) I place them a bit further to the right, but more likely to move leftwards than any of the mainland Scandinavian countries.

[DavidB.]

I'm amazed by Denmark having a bigger welfare state than both Norway and Sweden. Is this because Denmark didn't do as much privatization as Sweden did in the 1990s? Haven't the blue bloc parties tried to cut the welfare state in their rather long period in office?

[politicus]

I'm amazed by Denmark having a bigger welfare state than both Norway and Sweden. Is this because Denmark didn't do as much privatization as Sweden did in the 1990s? Haven't the blue bloc parties tried to cut the welfare state in their rather long period in office?

1) Yes, Sweden has cut and privatized a lot more than Denmark. Starting in the 1990s, but continuing in the 00s.

2) Not really, Anders Fogh Rasmussen tried to establish Venstre as the big national party and squeeze out the SDs by basically accepting the welfare state as it was and focusing on "value politics" = social issues and foreign politics. He argued that changing the social consensus to the right ("Winning the value struggle") would make economic reforms possible later on. His strong position made it possible to keep more principled economic liberals in check. There were some cuts after LLR took over in 2009 (mostly on unemployment benefits), but the HTS government actually cut a lot harder than VK (and could do so because there were no opposition to it except Red Greens, a few union leaders and token efforts from DPP.

[politicus]

Depends how you define conservative

I take that back after having thought about it. This is one of those questions where there is an objectively correct answer. No matter what (reasonable) definition of conservative or Conservatism you use and whether you focus on cultural, social or political conservatism the answer is Finland if you only count sovereign nations and the Faroe Islands if you include non-sovereign nations.

The ranking of the countries on the other hand can be debated and varies quite a lot depending on how you define conservative.

[DavidB.]

Thanks for your elaborate answer on my question regarding the Danish welfare state.

What makes Finland more conservative than Norway?

[politicus]

What makes Finland more conservative than Norway?

It would be easier to turn it around and say why Norway is less Conservative than Finland.

Politically Norway has a much stronger centre-left and a less Conservative centre-right.

Norwegian Labour is a strong party ahead of a movement that still has organizations in a lot of areas and some media. Finnish SDs are weak and so is the rest of the left.

The Finnish Centre party, Finns Party and National Coalition party are all Conservative in different ways. That is three of the four biggest parties and there are no Liberal parties on the centre-right (unless you count the Swedish People's Party), unlike Norway, who has the Liberals and non-Conservative centre-right parties such as the Centre and a rather centrist Christian Democratic party. 

Both countries are very patriotic and love their traditions and language. Norway has a Bible Belt in the SW, but outside of this Christianity is fairly liberal. Rural and small town Finland is more SoCon than rural/small town Norway outside of the Bible Belt.

Both nations like to hunt, but Finland has a strong allround gun culture. It also has a more positive view of the military/willingness to fight (though both countries are much higher on this than the average European country).

Multiculturalism is more accepted in Norway than in Finland.

Both countries are among the top 3 on UN gender equality ranking, so we are talking about nuances, but Finland has a more traditional ideal of masculinity with the strong, silent, solid male. Norwegian ideals of masculinity are more modernized.

The most equal countries in the UN gender gap rating was:

2013           2014

1. Iceland    1. Iceland
2. Norway   2. Finland
3. Finland    3.Norway
4. Sweden   4. Sweden
8. Denmark 5. Denmark

[DC Al Fine]

Why are the Faroe Islands most conservative?

[politicus]

Why are the Faroe Islands most conservative?

Religion, isolation, love of tradition.

1. They are keeping lots of old traditions like chain dancing to medieval folk songs, dressing up in traditional clothes for festivities, rowing matches in traditional boats, bird catching, grindadrap, playing 300 year old card games etc. alive + gender roles are more traditional than in mainland Scandinavia.

2. It is by far the most religious country with many evangelical sects - abortion is illegal as the only Nordic country, gay marriage or registered partnership doesnt exist (as last Nordic country), sale of alcohol restricted to state monopoly (well, most other Nordic countries has that swell), prostitution being illegal (seller and buyer, not Nordic model with buyer only).

3. There are SoCons in 3 of their 4 big parties incl. their SD + in two centrist parties - one of which is a very influential Centrist, but very SoCon (and unfortunately homophobic) party. Only a (big) Socialist and (small) Libertarian party are 100% SoLib.

4. They have a 40% flat income tax and less public welfare than in mainland Scandinavia + their Conservative party (with about 20%) is the most right wing among Scandinavian Conservative parties and 100% SoCon.

[DavidB.]

Many thanks for explaining this, truly interesting.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Yes, I'm trying to fathom why somebody voted Sweden. My best guess is they're going for the stereotype that the Swedes are arrogant snobs, obsessed with public order (when not drunkenly rambling around Denmark, that is). Still it does seem hard to claim they are more conservative than say the Finns and Norwegians.

Anyway, I would say the least conservative is Demark but I'm probably thinking too much of Christiana.

[politicus]

Yes, I'm trying to fathom why somebody voted Sweden. My best guess is they're going for the stereotype that the Swedes are arrogant snobs, obsessed with public order (when not drunkenly rambling around Denmark, that is). Still it does seem hard to claim they are more conservative than say the Finns and Norwegians.

Anyway, I would say the least conservative is Demark but I'm probably thinking too much of Christiana.

Despite our uneasiness about multiculturalism and being the most foot dragging on gender relations I think Denmark is the most culturally and socially liberal of the countries.

Part of the reason Denmark has the largest gender gap is also opposition to gender quotas and government regulation of anything relating to sexual moral, which are both based on liberal instincts rather than conservative.

Even Danish opposition to multiculturalism is to a large degree fueled by SoCon/patriarchal/macho immigrants being seen as a threat to a Social Liberal consensus.

It is just how you factor in Danes voting to the right of Swedes, Norwegians and increasingly also Icelanders.

[ingemann]

I also think this show th problems with deciding what country is the most liberal or conservative. Both Denmark and Sweden are to large quite similar, but there's some structural and cultural difference, which make the two countries distinct.

Danish liberalism have always valued a somewhat insular attitude, do what you do affect other (and me)? If not I don't care whether you have sex with people of the same gender as you, live together unmarried, have multible sexual partners. On the other hand, if it affect ME negative, find pitchforks and torches. It's why Denmark was historical incredible intolerant of gypsies and at the same time welcomed Jews. One was seen as affecting the state negative and the other positive.

Swedish liberalism (to me) seem on the other hand somewhat... well the best description, the farmer's boy comes to the big city. We all know the archetype smart people, who have been born in American south in a conservative baptist family, they're tired of their conservative family, so when they go to the university, they shallow all what're taught with no critical sense, whether some of it may not be true or useful. Swedish culture seem like that; smart and hardworking but too willing to adopt the last intellectual hype.

[politicus]

I also think this show th problems with deciding what country is the most liberal or conservative. Both Denmark and Sweden are to large quite similar, but there's some structural and cultural difference, which make the two countries distinct.

Danish liberalism have always valued a somewhat insular attitude, do what you do affect other (and me)? If not I don't care whether you have sex with people of the same gender as you, live together unmarried, have multible sexual partners. On the other hand, if it affect ME negative, find pitchforks and torches.

Swedish liberalism (to me) seem on the other hand somewhat... well the best description, the farmer's boy comes to the big city. We all know the archetype smart people, who have been born in American south in a conservative baptist family, they're tired of their conservative family, so when they go to the university, they shallow all what're taught with no critical sense, that some of it may not be true or useful. Swedish culture seem like that; smart and hardworking but too willing to adopt the last intellectual hype.

A somewhat nicer way to say that is that Danish liberalism has been focusing on negative liberty and Swedish liberalism on positive liberty - which then tends to make them more receptive to progressive fads.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Why are the Faroe Islands most conservative?

Religion, isolation, love of tradition.

1. They are keeping lots of old traditions like chain dancing to medieval folk songs, dressing up in traditional clothes for festivities, rowing matches in traditional boats, bird catching, grindadrap, playing 300 year old card games etc. alive + gender roles are more traditional than in mainland Scandinavia.

2. It is by far the most religious country with many evangelical sects - abortion is illegal as the only Nordic country, gay marriage or registered partnership doesnt exist (as last Nordic country), sale of alcohol restricted to state monopoly (well, most other Nordic countries has that swell), prostitution being illegal (seller and buyer, not Nordic model with buyer only).

3. There are SoCons in 3 of their 4 big parties incl. their SD + in two centrist parties - one of which is a very influential Centrist, but very SoCon (and unfortunately homophobic) party. Only a (big) Socialist and (small) Libertarian party are 100% SoLib.

4. They have a 40% flat income tax and less public welfare than in mainland Scandinavia + their Conservative party (with about 20%) is the most right wing among Scandinavian Conservative parties and 100% SoCon.

I've read that Faroese women are leaving in droves because of the conservative culture and general lack of career opportunities. Maybe that will teach the men something.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Anyway, Sweden is socially progressive, while Denmark is socially liberal.

[Famous Mortimer]

I also think this show th problems with deciding what country is the most liberal or conservative. Both Denmark and Sweden are to large quite similar, but there's some structural and cultural difference, which make the two countries distinct.

Danish liberalism have always valued a somewhat insular attitude, do what you do affect other (and me)? If not I don't care whether you have sex with people of the same gender as you, live together unmarried, have multible sexual partners. On the other hand, if it affect ME negative, find pitchforks and torches.

Swedish liberalism (to me) seem on the other hand somewhat... well the best description, the farmer's boy comes to the big city. We all know the archetype smart people, who have been born in American south in a conservative baptist family, they're tired of their conservative family, so when they go to the university, they shallow all what're taught with no critical sense, that some of it may not be true or useful. Swedish culture seem like that; smart and hardworking but too willing to adopt the last intellectual hype.

A somewhat nicer way to say that is that Danish liberalism has been focusing on negative liberty and Swedish liberalism on positive liberty - which then tends to make them more receptive to progressive fads.

This is sort of odd since Denmark has a bigger welfare state and welfare states are associated with positive liberty.

[politicus]

I also think this show th problems with deciding what country is the most liberal or conservative. Both Denmark and Sweden are to large quite similar, but there's some structural and cultural difference, which make the two countries distinct.

Danish liberalism have always valued a somewhat insular attitude, do what you do affect other (and me)? If not I don't care whether you have sex with people of the same gender as you, live together unmarried, have multible sexual partners. On the other hand, if it affect ME negative, find pitchforks and torches.

Swedish liberalism (to me) seem on the other hand somewhat... well the best description, the farmer's boy comes to the big city. We all know the archetype smart people, who have been born in American south in a conservative baptist family, they're tired of their conservative family, so when they go to the university, they shallow all what're taught with no critical sense, that some of it may not be true or useful. Swedish culture seem like that; smart and hardworking but too willing to adopt the last intellectual hype.

A somewhat nicer way to say that is that Danish liberalism has been focusing on negative liberty and Swedish liberalism on positive liberty - which then tends to make them more receptive to progressive fads.

This is sort of odd since Denmark has a bigger welfare state and welfare states are associated with positive liberty.

Liberals helped build the welfare state, but Social Democrats were the driving force - and all SDs obviously focused on positive liberty.

Anyway, its relative - there are many elements of positive liberty in Danish liberalism as well, it just isn't so dominant as in Swedish liberalism.

[TDAS04]

To clarify, I did mean which is most conservative in the way Americans define the term.  Pro-business economics, traditionalist social beliefs, emphasis on culturally conformity, maybe a tough "law-and-order" mentality, etc.  Maybe that's vague, but I did mean a combination of all of those.  That may be complicated, but it should make the question more debatable.

[ingemann]

To clarify, I did mean which is most conservative in the way Americans define the term.  Pro-business economics, traditionalist social beliefs, emphasis on culturally conformity, maybe a tough "law-and-order" mentality, etc.  Maybe that's vague, but I did mean a combination of all of those.  That may be complicated, but it should make the question more debatable.

The problem is that while that combination is not meaningless outside USA, it's neither very meaningful, especially not as a short hand for conservatism. As example all Nordic countries value cultural conformity (Sweden most of all ironic), all of them are rather pro-business (but real pro-business, not Republican faux pro-business), traditionalist belief depend a lot on how you define them. Of course law and order as in long prison sentence we're all softies, while the Nordic states are very jealous about anybody threaten their monopoly of force.