Opinion of Third Wave Feminism

[bagelman]

Feminism FM

Sexist man-hating radical "feminists" that want affirmative action rather than empowerment and use the phrase "Men have no right to have an opinion about X" HM.

[VPH]

FM on balance.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     The first two waves were great. The third wave is laden with too much garbage to be anything other than HM.

[Enduro]

I believe in loving one another no matter your gender, race, or sexual orientation.

"Above all else, love each other deeply, for love can cover a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8

"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:10

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

     The first two waves were great. The third wave is laden with too much garbage to be anything other than HM.

Surely the second wave is more "laden with garbage" if you want to pernickety? After all, that was the era of radicals, obsession with penises, separatism etc.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

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A lot of threads about porn and prostitution on this forum.  I can't recall a single major candidate having a meaningful discussion about either topic in years... but yet you guys focus on both with a regularity that is a bit unsettling.

One small problem with the porn statement you posted is there are numerous female porn directors and female owned porn production companies.  Also with the advent of the internet it is now possible for women to consume porn in the privacy of their own home without having to go to sleazy male filled venues.

I don't agree with the "blurring of gender identity and gender roles."  The fact of the matter is a lot of people male and female like a lot of things about the way society is set up.  I guess I should say they may like the overall theme but be a little less enthusiastic about some of the on the ground implementation.

For example most women prefer a situation where a man is the bread winner.  I see this even amongst my highly educated financially successful female friends.  They have a hard time getting married because they still want a man that will fulfill that strong bread winner role.  Kind of hard to find a guy making $200K to out do your $100K.

And liberal women will say all sorts of wonderful open minded things but don't be fooled they still want a "real" man.

The global thing is just courting disaster.  Some of these extreme feminists don't even understand American white culture.  There is no way they are going to understand black African culture or Indian culture or whatever.

I suppose the fact is there is no one "right" way to structure your society.   The Netherlands is far more left wing, socialist, and open minded than the United States ever will be and they all live quite happily with entire towns devoted to religious zealots and one of the highest percentages of stay at home mom's in the Western first world.  I would love to see one of these misinformed bra burning American feminists go to the Nethelands and explain to the women over there with their robust social safety net and state funded education and healthcare how they need to throw off their shackles of male bondage and get grueling 80 hour a week jobs in investment banking or medicine.

While working part time is considered a pox on the labor market in the US it is considered a normal and desirable way of life for Dutch women.  68% of Dutch women work part time.

If someone ever makes a documentary about a US feminist going to the Netherlands to make it a civilized country I will get a big tub of popcorn and settle in for a delightful comedy.

[tik 🪀✨]

Schadenfreude knows what women really want.

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The point is that people be free to break these norms when it suits them, and that the expectation/pressure to fulfill them in the traditional ways only be eliminated. The blurring of gender identity and gender roles isn't something everyone must do as much as it something everyone must accommodate. The emphasis is placed on relaxing expectations and allowing people to be who they are with the hope that this will benefit individuals and society. What women and men are like and what they want and what being a man or woman means to themselves or society, on average, probably won't shift. And that's really quite okay - the point is, in one way, to relax the rigid social structures because their foundations are objectively artificial and potentially harmful to those of us who don't quite fit. I would hope that this isn't an extreme point of view.

In any case "But all the women I know want X" is a silly way to form an opinion.

There is a lot of terrifying garbage that has seeped out of the fringes of third wave feminist thought and that's all that people notice. I am not sympathetic to a lot of it but I'd still rather live in a world where these ideas were being debated than in one where they weren't.

[Donald Trump 2016 !]

Schadenfreude knows what women really want.

To be fair, his point about a lot of women wanting a man who is bread winner/better financially than them is pretty common.

Look at articles like these:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larissafaw/2012/12/05/why-are-so-many-professional-millennial-women-unable-to-find-dateable-men/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/07/why-college-educated-women-can-t-find-love.html
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201203/why-women-cant-find-good-man
http://www.eharmony.com/dating-advice/dating/why-successful-women-cant-find-a-great-man/#.Vhs_I1UVikp

[Gustaf]

Saying that people brought up to believe in certain things believe in certain things is not much of an argument.

Not saying there is no merit to that line of reasoning but if you don't even acknowledge the point of the feminists on that you just come off as ignorant.

The way I understand third wave (in opposition to second wave) I'm broadly positive. There are feminists I disagree with of course, but the mainstream is a lot less radical than Atlas misogynists like to believe.

[Donald Trump 2016 !]

Saying that people brought up to believe in certain things believe in certain things is not much of an argument.

Not saying there is no merit to that line of reasoning but if you don't even acknowledge the point of the feminists on that you just come off as ignorant.

The way I understand third wave (in opposition to second wave) I'm broadly positive. There are feminists I disagree with of course, but the mainstream is a lot less radical than Atlas misogynists like to believe.

The nature vs nurture debate is not settled between psychologists and biologists, especially in regards to gender. It's difficult to determine if certain gender specific behaviors are driven due to culture, or due to biology.

[YaBoyNY]

Schadenfreude knows what women really want.

To be fair, his point about a lot of women wanting a man who is bread winner/better financially than them is pretty common.

Look at articles like these:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larissafaw/2012/12/05/why-are-so-many-professional-millennial-women-unable-to-find-dateable-men/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/07/why-college-educated-women-can-t-find-love.html
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201203/why-women-cant-find-good-man
http://www.eharmony.com/dating-advice/dating/why-successful-women-cant-find-a-great-man/#.Vhs_I1UVikp

what is this trash

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Because if there are four sources I associate with serious analysis of gender roles, they're Forbes, the Daily Beast, Psychology Today, and eHarmony!

[Famous Mortimer]

I assume women who are poor and/or have no ambition in life other than to have children (unfortunately this is probably a silent majority), they do want a guy who can support them financially and that's probably one of the main things they look for.

I live in a Brooklyn Hipster bubble though. If the women I know only had sex with men who made more money than them, they would be celibate.

[Donald Trump 2016 !]

Because if there are four sources I associate with serious analysis of gender roles, they're Forbes, the Daily Beast, Psychology Today, and eHarmony!

Given the quality of gender studies degrees, I'll take any of those sites over the "high prestige" and intellectual authority of what some feminist gender studies professor thinks.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Because if there are four sources I associate with serious analysis of gender roles, they're Forbes, the Daily Beast, Psychology Today, and eHarmony!

Given the quality of gender studies degrees, I'll take any of those sites over the "high prestige" and intellectual authority of what some feminist gender studies professor thinks.

Forbes and the Daily Beast maybe, and if you think that about eHarmony there's no way I can help you, but I'm not sure you realize how trashy Psychology Today is...

Also, does it ever occur to you that 'rejecting feminist thought (because you pay attention to material like this instead (because you reject feminist thought))' might constitute a confirmation bias?

[Donald Trump 2016 !]

Because if there are four sources I associate with serious analysis of gender roles, they're Forbes, the Daily Beast, Psychology Today, and eHarmony!

Given the quality of gender studies degrees, I'll take any of those sites over the "high prestige" and intellectual authority of what some feminist gender studies professor thinks.

Forbes and the Daily Beast maybe, and if you think that about eHarmony there's no way I can help you, but I'm not sure you realize how trashy Psychology Today is...

Also, does it ever occur to you that 'rejecting feminist thought (because you pay attention to material like this instead (because you reject feminist thought))' might constitute a confirmation bias?

For a while that was certainty true. I then started to read topics on gender studies and other feminist blogs (since I could never back up claims I made in arguments) to see what the other side said. There's a few problems with modern third wave feminist thinking that I noticed. The statistics and data on the concept of the patriarchy, the wage gap, and rape culture were shockingly worse than the ones I was reading about prior. There's a very strong divide with these issues, in particular how the data was collected.

I'll use one example, the wage gap. The wage gap is calculated by many of these feminist articles almost never takes into account for occupations, positions, education, hours worked, tenure, workplace safety, bearing children, etc. which almost always causes men to earn more on average than women. Even among primarily self employed professions where you set your own hours, such as Dentists, the pay gap is still about 40% between men and women. (Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/03/us-gender-income-idUSBRE98211R20130903) The next question would be the debate as to whether women are choosing to do this because it's an innate biological difference, or because they were brought up into a patriarchal society and are culturally inclined to prefer making less than a man does. The nature vs. nurture debate is still ongoing with gender, and I don't want to make any definite conclusions on that subject. However, given the fact that it was already misleading to tout the wage gap without putting it into the correct context, I'm inclined not to trust the conclusions by feminist authors and professors. On the other hand, I don't trust a lot of MRAs for the same reason and despise Red Pillers for being blatantly misogynistic.  

[YaBoyNY]

captainkangaroo you're embarassing yourself with how thick and uninformed you are about this subject.

cut your losses man

[Donald Trump 2016 !]

captainkangaroo you're embarassing yourself with how thick and uninformed you are about this subject.

cut your losses man

You can't event form a rebuttal to anything I said so you simply throw personal insults at me. When you're ready to act like an adult, try responding to what I wrote.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

captainkangaroo you're embarassing yourself with how thick and uninformed you are about this subject.

cut your losses man

You can't event form a rebuttal to anything I said so you simply throw personal insults at me. When you're ready to act like an adult, try responding to what I wrote.

Were you expecting anything more?  I laid out the example of women in the Netherlands and not one of them even touched the subject.  I learned about that statistic fairly late in life and was surprised.  It didn't line up with the narrative I was taught all my life.  It would have been nice to have an intelligent discussion about it but it is painfully clear if a data point isn't on their script they will just ignore it and insult you.  I suppose that is better than them running their mouths about something they clearly don't know anything about.

I assume women who are poor and/or have no ambition in life other than to have children (unfortunately this is probably a silent majority), they do want a guy who can support them financially and that's probably one of the main things they look for.

I live in a Brooklyn Hipster bubble though. If the women I know only had sex with men who made more money than them, they would be celibate.

Having sex with someone is very different to marrying them and having children with them.  Having said that you bring up a good point.  Due to the advances made in equality in education we are approaching a point in time where there is going to be an oversupply of well educated high earning women.  Frankly the people denying that a lot of these women want someone who earns as much as them and preferably more are doing these women a disservice.

In any case "But all the women I know want X" is a silly way to form an opinion.

Nice strawman.  Who said "all" women?  Is there such a poverty of facts and ideas that you have to resort to such tactics?

The point is that people be free to break these norms when it suits them, and that the expectation/pressure to fulfill them in the traditional ways only be eliminated.

No one said people aren't free to do what they want.  As far as pressure is concerned what are you going to do legislate what parents tell their kids about marriage?  Mandate parents hide the fact dad makes more than mom?  Arrest mom for saying she is happy being a house wife or only working part time at the law firm?

My problem with some areas of femenist thought is there is this pervasive underlying feeling that in a perfect world where women are treated the same as men at school and in the work place that companies with be 50/50 male and female in all positions and the women will be really happy with that state of affairs... as opposed to the current situation.  As with my example of the Netherlands what the world looks like as you approach utopia isn't necessarily a perfect 50/50 split in the work place and a lot of women are fine with that.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mother-tongue/11118738/Stay-at-home-mothers-have-the-most-worthwhile-lives.html

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http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/the-feminismhappiness-axis/

Reminds me of Palestine and Egypt.  Americans demanded they have free and democratic elections.  Then Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood were swept into power.  Now the same Americans are decrying the election results.  Newsflash when people in other cultures are free to determine how to structure their society they won't necessarily conform to the fantasy in your American head.

Anyway like I said I can't wait for an American feminist who can't go to Planned Parenthood, get proper maternity leave, get an almost free college degree, doesn't have a proper social safety net for her and her children go to the Netherlands and explain to Dutch women how they need to be more progressive... like the US.

[Making America Great Again]

Feminism is very bad for the family structure.

[Cory]

captainkangaroo you're embarassing yourself with how thick and uninformed you are about this subject.

cut your losses man

You can't event form a rebuttal to anything I said so you simply throw personal insults at me. When you're ready to act like an adult, try responding to what I wrote.

Third Wave Feminism in a nutshell. Children with few real problems finding ways to be "oppressed".

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The wage gap is largely due to the lack of paternal leave. Ideally both parents should be given equal time off to raise the child, like how Sweden does it.

[checkers]

idk, I find the idea of judging 'waves' of feminism in this manner a bit overly simplistic when there have always been numerous different currents within feminism - liberal vs radical vs socialist etc. People here have been describing the second wave as austere, anti-sex etc and sure, you have Andrea Dworkin, but that period had the Helen Gurley Brown, "Sex and the Single Girl" type feminism and the "porn wars". I often feel like the way the waves are characterised is inconsistent and a certain wave (often second wave) will become representative of the kind of feminism the speaker dislikes - the second wave is often caricatured conversely as too liberal and rights-based, or too radical/separatist; not inclusive of lesbians, or lesbian separatist. In many ways the disputes of the second wave (and even the first wave) are still being waged today.

[RFayette]

Horrible Movement. The only things that are good about it are the things PJ doesn't like: the criticism of pornography and prostitution. But you don't really need feminism for that. You just need to respect women (normal).

Feminism and individualism/progressivism in general have led to the crazy situation in which for many, Miley Cyrus twerking almost nude in front of some rapper's d**k has become some sort of symbol of (sexual) liberation whereas a classy woman dressing modestly is often pitied or seen as "old-fashioned". This attitude is unhealthy for individuals (both men and women) and for society as a whole.

[tik 🪀✨]

In any case "But all the women I know want X" is a silly way to form an opinion.

Nice strawman.  Who said "all" women?  Is there such a poverty of facts and ideas that you have to resort to such tactics

Yes.

The point is that people be free to break these norms when it suits them, and that the expectation/pressure to fulfill them in the traditional ways only be eliminated.

No one said people aren't free to do what they want.  As far as pressure is concerned what are you going to do legislate what parents tell their kids about marriage?  Mandate parents hide the fact dad makes more than mom?  Arrest mom for saying she is happy being a house wife or only working part time at the law firm?

I don't think it's necessary to just rephrase things I wrote originally in the post. You could have just empty quoted me instead of regurgitating that I believe we should arrest mom.

My problem with some areas of femenist thought is there is this pervasive underlying feeling that in a perfect world where women are treated the same as men at school and in the work place that companies with be 50/50 male and female in all positions and the women will be really happy with that state of affairs... as opposed to the current situation.  As with my example of the Netherlands what the world looks like as you approach utopia isn't necessarily a perfect 50/50 split in the work place and a lot of women are fine with that.

I also think your deliberate misunderstanding of feminism is terrible.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mother-tongue/11118738/Stay-at-home-mothers-have-the-most-worthwhile-lives.html

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http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/the-feminismhappiness-axis/

That's great, it kind of reminds me of something I remember from earlier...

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Anyway!

Reminds me of Palestine and Egypt.  Americans demanded they have free and democratic elections.  Then Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood were swept into power.  Now the same Americans are decrying the election results.  Newsflash when people in other cultures are free to determine how to structure their society they won't necessarily conform to the fantasy in your American head.

femenism is head democracy for teh ladies

Anyway like I said I can't wait for an American feminist who can't go to Planned Parenthood, get proper maternity leave, get an almost free college degree, doesn't have a proper social safety net for her and her children go to the Netherlands and explain to Dutch women how they need to be more progressive... like the US.

How.. specific of you.