Day 5: Andorra

[Tetro Kornbluth]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra



The only country in the world where Catalan is an official language (for now). Also known for ski vacations and being a tax haven for the Spanish rich.

[politicus]

Only sovereign Catalan state. FC!

[Cranberry]

FC alone for the just lovely fact that it is ruled by two foreign co-princes

[politicus]

FC for the just lovely fact that it is ruled by two foreign co-princes alone

One of them being the French President takes some of the charm away from that.

[Cranberry]

FC alone for the just lovely fact that it is ruled by two foreign co-princes

One of them being the French President takes some of the charm away from that.

Yeah, but in theory this is just so obscure and funny it makes the country absolutely loveable, imo.

[Zioneer]

FC for the just lovely fact that it is ruled by two foreign co-princes alone

One of them being the French President takes some of the charm away from that.

And the other is the Bishop of Urgell.

[politicus]

FC for the just lovely fact that it is ruled by two foreign co-princes alone

One of them being the French President takes some of the charm away from that.

And the other is the Bishop of Urgell.

Yes, but that is sufficiently medieval to have a quaint charm (unless the current Bishop is some kind of terrible person - dunno if that was your point?).

[Antonio the Sixth]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

[politicus]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

[Famous Mortimer]

and the Cornish aren't English but come on.

[politicus]

and the Cornish aren't English but come on.

False equivalent. They are Catalans, that is a living language and culture.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

I'm perfectly OK with an independent Catalonia (within a strong federal EU, but I digress).

[politicus]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

I'm perfectly OK with an independent Catalonia (within a strong federal EU, but I digress).

Well, then why think Andorra shouldn't exist? It is the only independent Catalan state so far.

[PJ]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

I'm perfectly OK with an independent Catalonia (within a strong federal EU, but I digress).

Well, then why think Andorra shouldn't exist? It is the only independent Catalan state so far.

None of the tax haven states should exist (or they should at least revoke their status as a tax haven if they continue to exist).

[politicus]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

I'm perfectly OK with an independent Catalonia (within a strong federal EU, but I digress).

Well, then why think Andorra shouldn't exist? It is the only independent Catalan state so far.

None of the tax haven states should exist (or they should at least revoke their status as a tax haven if they continue to exist).

A country should not lose it's sovereignty because of it's tax policies.

[PJ]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

I'm perfectly OK with an independent Catalonia (within a strong federal EU, but I digress).

Well, then why think Andorra shouldn't exist? It is the only independent Catalan state so far.

None of the tax haven states should exist (or they should at least revoke their status as a tax haven if they continue to exist).

A country should not lose it's sovereignty because of it's tax policies.

I concede that Andorra has some more legitimacy than some other tax havens (only Catalan state and so forth) but in the case of tax havens, many exist and have sovereignty precisely because of their tax policies.

[politicus]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

I'm perfectly OK with an independent Catalonia (within a strong federal EU, but I digress).

Well, then why think Andorra shouldn't exist? It is the only independent Catalan state so far.

None of the tax haven states should exist (or they should at least revoke their status as a tax haven if they continue to exist).

A country should not lose it's sovereignty because of it's tax policies.

I concede that Andorra has some more legitimacy than some other tax havens (only Catalan state and so forth) but in the case of tax havens, many exist and have sovereignty precisely because of their tax policies.

At least the European ones have old historical roots (relics left untouched after the Napoleonic/post-Napoleonic reorganization) and the Pacific ones are home to particular people (and far away from neighboring countries). Maybe some of the Caribbean ones would have merged with others if they hadn't been tax havens.

What states do you doubt had existed without being tax havens?

[PJ]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

I'm perfectly OK with an independent Catalonia (within a strong federal EU, but I digress).

Well, then why think Andorra shouldn't exist? It is the only independent Catalan state so far.

None of the tax haven states should exist (or they should at least revoke their status as a tax haven if they continue to exist).

A country should not lose it's sovereignty because of it's tax policies.

I concede that Andorra has some more legitimacy than some other tax havens (only Catalan state and so forth) but in the case of tax havens, many exist and have sovereignty precisely because of their tax policies.

At least the European ones have old historical roots (relics left untouched after the Napoleonic/post-Napoleonic reorganization) and the Pacific ones are home to particular people (and far away from neighboring countries). Maybe some of the Caribbean ones would have merged with others if they hadn't been tax havens.

What states do you doubt had existed without being tax havens?

Most of these countries have an economy kept alive by their tax haven status. The makeup of both states and territories in the Caribbean would likely look somewhat different if not for the incentive for these economies to exist independently that tax havens provide.

But more to the point, many of these states have little point other than the fact that they are a tax haven, and I'd rather not have the legitimate harm that tax havens cause protected under the veil of national sovereignty.

[politicus]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

I'm perfectly OK with an independent Catalonia (within a strong federal EU, but I digress).

Well, then why think Andorra shouldn't exist? It is the only independent Catalan state so far.

None of the tax haven states should exist (or they should at least revoke their status as a tax haven if they continue to exist).

A country should not lose it's sovereignty because of it's tax policies.

I concede that Andorra has some more legitimacy than some other tax havens (only Catalan state and so forth) but in the case of tax havens, many exist and have sovereignty precisely because of their tax policies.

At least the European ones have old historical roots (relics left untouched after the Napoleonic/post-Napoleonic reorganization) and the Pacific ones are home to particular people (and far away from neighboring countries). Maybe some of the Caribbean ones would have merged with others if they hadn't been tax havens.

What states do you doubt had existed without being tax havens?

Most of these countries have an economy kept alive by their tax haven status. The makeup of both states and territories in the Caribbean would likely look somewhat different if not for the incentive for these economies to exist independently that tax havens provide.

But more to the point, many of these states have little point other than the fact that they are a tax haven, and I'd rather not have the legitimate harm that tax havens cause protected under the veil of national sovereignty.

I asked for names. Especially if you have examples outside of the Caribbean.

[PJ]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

I'm perfectly OK with an independent Catalonia (within a strong federal EU, but I digress).

Well, then why think Andorra shouldn't exist? It is the only independent Catalan state so far.

None of the tax haven states should exist (or they should at least revoke their status as a tax haven if they continue to exist).

A country should not lose it's sovereignty because of it's tax policies.

I concede that Andorra has some more legitimacy than some other tax havens (only Catalan state and so forth) but in the case of tax havens, many exist and have sovereignty precisely because of their tax policies.

At least the European ones have old historical roots (relics left untouched after the Napoleonic/post-Napoleonic reorganization) and the Pacific ones are home to particular people (and far away from neighboring countries). Maybe some of the Caribbean ones would have merged with others if they hadn't been tax havens.

What states do you doubt had existed without being tax havens?

Most of these countries have an economy kept alive by their tax haven status. The makeup of both states and territories in the Caribbean would likely look somewhat different if not for the incentive for these economies to exist independently that tax havens provide.

But more to the point, many of these states have little point other than the fact that they are a tax haven, and I'd rather not have the legitimate harm that tax havens cause protected under the veil of national sovereignty.

I asked for names. Especially if you have examples outside of the Caribbean.

Outside the Caribbean, Liechtenstein is probably the best example. It doesn't have a unique language or ethnicity, and it was struggling before choosing to become a tax haven, which essentially ensured its preservation as a state. Many of the territories both in and outside the Caribbean (US and British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Isle of Man, Gibraltar, Turks and Caicos, etc.) give politicians a motivation to preserve their current status through their tax haven status as well.

[politicus]

Obviously it shouldn't exist, but it's mostly harmless and hilarious for the reasons mentioned

Why not? At least as long as there are no independent Catalonia. They are not Spanish, nor French.

I'm perfectly OK with an independent Catalonia (within a strong federal EU, but I digress).

Well, then why think Andorra shouldn't exist? It is the only independent Catalan state so far.

None of the tax haven states should exist (or they should at least revoke their status as a tax haven if they continue to exist).

A country should not lose it's sovereignty because of it's tax policies.

I concede that Andorra has some more legitimacy than some other tax havens (only Catalan state and so forth) but in the case of tax havens, many exist and have sovereignty precisely because of their tax policies.

At least the European ones have old historical roots (relics left untouched after the Napoleonic/post-Napoleonic reorganization) and the Pacific ones are home to particular people (and far away from neighboring countries). Maybe some of the Caribbean ones would have merged with others if they hadn't been tax havens.

What states do you doubt had existed without being tax havens?

Most of these countries have an economy kept alive by their tax haven status. The makeup of both states and territories in the Caribbean would likely look somewhat different if not for the incentive for these economies to exist independently that tax havens provide.

But more to the point, many of these states have little point other than the fact that they are a tax haven, and I'd rather not have the legitimate harm that tax havens cause protected under the veil of national sovereignty.

I asked for names. Especially if you have examples outside of the Caribbean.

Outside the Caribbean, Liechtenstein is probably the best example. It doesn't have a unique language or ethnicity, and it was struggling before choosing to become a tax haven, which essentially ensured its preservation as a state. Many of the territories both in and outside the Caribbean (US and British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Isle of Man, Gibraltar, Turks and Caicos, etc.) give politicians a motivation to preserve their current status through their tax haven status as well.

People on Isle of Man have a distinct identity - and some are heirs to a specific culture even if the Manx language died out.

Most Gibraltans are not Spanish and do not want to be so, so the only alternative would be to incorporate them in England, which would provoke Spain. Llanito is de facto a separate (creole) language.

Liechtenstein was essentially a private estate bought by a magnate family with its main holding in Bohemia to secure a princely title, so I will give you that. It would likely have opted to join Switzerland otherwise (but that is in itself a sort of tax gaven).

In Monaco the "gated community at large" and extreme security element is as important as the tax haven status. Plus the casino can operate under more favorable conditions than in France. So there would be incentives to keep it going even without the tax haven element.

I guess the strong influx of Barbadians in the 20s and 30s means the US Virgin Islands (+ later migration, but especially the replacement of population after 1917) don't have a separate culture, but at least on St Croix, there are remnants of Danish culture - some people still have a separate identity.