Day 12: Austria

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

I am a fan of Austria, as well as the other countries in the German Sprachraum.

[politicus]

I am a fan of Austria, as well as the other countries in the German LebensSprachraum.

ftfy

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

I am a fan of Austria, as well as the other countries in the German LebensSprachraum.

ftfy

Because German=Nazi!?

[Joe Republic]

I'm a Conserva-Green

I do enjoy when people make up ideologies to describe themselves on the internet.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm a Conserva-Green

I do enjoy when people make up ideologies to describe themselves on the internet.

It's just an attempt to come up with a nice way to call himself an ecofascist, since he doesn't like the term.

[rob in cal]

   A couple thoughts.  A conserva-green could be  a supporter of the Ecological Democrats in Germany perhaps?  IIRC they once got 3% of the vote in a Bavarian parliamentary election. 
   Concerning Austria, its a shame that it wasn't allowed to keep the northern half of the South Tyrol and at least part of the Sudetenland after world war one.  Merging the southern and western part of the Sudetenland would have created a really funky border, but would have been the just decision, clearly, in terms of ethnic self determination.
    Some of my best memories of trips to Europe are from Austria.  A week spent on the Worthersee when I was 15, visiting the Salzburg area and then Vienna when I was a college student.
I hope to visit in the next few years as well.

[Cranberry]

   A couple thoughts.  A conserva-green could be  a supporter of the Ecological Democrats in Germany perhaps?  IIRC they once got 3% of the vote in a Bavarian parliamentary election. 
   Concerning Austria, its a shame that it wasn't allowed to keep the northern half of the South Tyrol and at least part of the Sudetenland after world war one.  Merging the southern and western part of the Sudetenland would have created a really funky border, but would have been the just decision, clearly, in terms of ethnic self determination.
    Some of my best memories of trips to Europe are from Austria.  A week spent on the Worthersee when I was 15, visiting the Salzburg area and then Vienna when I was a college student.
I hope to visit in the next few years as well.

Why on earth would anyone split South Tyrol in half? The whole of South Tyrol was at the time, and is still today safe for Bozen, ethnically homogenous German Tyrolean.

[Antonio the Sixth]

   A couple thoughts.  A conserva-green could be  a supporter of the Ecological Democrats in Germany perhaps?  IIRC they once got 3% of the vote in a Bavarian parliamentary election. 
   Concerning Austria, its a shame that it wasn't allowed to keep the northern half of the South Tyrol and at least part of the Sudetenland after world war one.  Merging the southern and western part of the Sudetenland would have created a really funky border, but would have been the just decision, clearly, in terms of ethnic self determination.
    Some of my best memories of trips to Europe are from Austria.  A week spent on the Worthersee when I was 15, visiting the Salzburg area and then Vienna when I was a college student.
I hope to visit in the next few years as well.

Why on earth would anyone split South Tyrol in half? The whole of South Tyrol was at the time, and is still today safe for Bozen, ethnically homogenous German Tyrolean.

You do realize South Tyrol includes the (overwhelmingly Italian) Trentino?

[Tender Branson]

  A couple thoughts.  A conserva-green could be  a supporter of the Ecological Democrats in Germany perhaps?  IIRC they once got 3% of the vote in a Bavarian parliamentary election.  
   Concerning Austria, its a shame that it wasn't allowed to keep the northern half of the South Tyrol and at least part of the Sudetenland after world war one.  Merging the southern and western part of the Sudetenland would have created a really funky border, but would have been the just decision, clearly, in terms of ethnic self determination.
    Some of my best memories of trips to Europe are from Austria.  A week spent on the Worthersee when I was 15, visiting the Salzburg area and then Vienna when I was a college student.
I hope to visit in the next few years as well.

Why on earth would anyone split South Tyrol in half? The whole of South Tyrol was at the time, and is still today safe for Bozen, ethnically homogenous German Tyrolean.

You do realize South Tyrol includes the (overwhelmingly Italian) Trentino?

When Austrians speak of South Tyrol, nobody includes Trentino.

South Tyrol is only the nothern part of Trentino-Alto-Adige.

If South Tyrol is somehow merged with Austria (lol), then it should be cut off just a few miles north of Bozen - with Bozen and suburbs being added to Trentino.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Historically, the Tyrol province of the Austro-Hungaric Empire included Trentino. Which is why Italy had any claim to it to begin with. When Tyrol was partitioned, Italy got a bigger slice than it should have, but both regions still technically count as "South Tyrol".

It's worth noting that the Südtiröler Volkspartei runs in both Trento and Bolzano provinces (though it only gets about 5% in the former).

[rob in cal]

  Right, I was referring to Austria keeping what would roughly match the "language frontier" at the time.  Having the Sudetenland joining the new Austria would be the trickier part, basically adding  a  C shaped chunk of territory onto the top of the new republic.

[Antonio the Sixth]

  Right, I was referring to Austria keeping what would roughly match the "language frontier" at the time.  Having the Sudetenland joining the new Austria would be the trickier part, basically adding  a  C shaped chunk of territory onto the top of the new republic.

Anschluss is the obvious solution. Hopefully it would gradually "Germanize" Austrian politics.

[politicus]

  Right, I was referring to Austria keeping what would roughly match the "language frontier" at the time.  Having the Sudetenland joining the new Austria would be the trickier part, basically adding  a  C shaped chunk of territory onto the top of the new republic.

Anschluss is the obvious solution. Hopefully it would gradually "Germanize" Austrian politics.

[Cranberry]

Historically, the Tyrol province of the Austro-Hungaric Empire included Trentino. Which is why Italy had any claim to it to begin with. When Tyrol was partitioned, Italy got a bigger slice than it should have, but both regions still technically count as "South Tyrol".

It's worth noting that the Südtiröler Volkspartei runs in both Trento and Bolzano provinces (though it only gets about 5% in the former).

I know of the history of my homeland; but South Tyrol (Südtirol) really only includes the German speaking part of the now Italian-part of Tyrol - the Trentino is, while being part of Tyrol as a whole, was rather referred to as Welschtirol ("Welsch" or "Walsch" being an old term for Italians / Italian-speaking people), never though as Südtirol. It is obviously a bit stupid, given the Trentino is actually the southernmost part of Tyrol, and to the south of South Tyrol; but South Tyrol really never includes the Trentino.

The Italian claim to the Trentino, by the way, was just the same as to South Tyrol - being on the winning side in WWI. Historically, the people in the Trentino felt foremost as Tyroleans, and then as speakers of the Italian language - the Tyrolean identity was one that included speakers of both languages. It was just the fascists that were able to weaken the Tyrolean identity and force tensions between Italian and German speakers; but this sentiment and identity is returning nowadays - note for example the name of one of Trentino's strongest parties - Partito Autonomista Trentino Tirolese.

The SVP running even in Trento province makes sense, since it sees itsself as representation of the German and Ladin speaking people in Italy, and there being a Ladin minority in both South Tyrol and the Trentino. Iirc, they even run in the Ampezzo area in Belluno province, which historically was part of South Tyrol and still today has a signifcant Ladin minority.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Historically, the people in the Trentino felt foremost as Tyroleans, and then as speakers of the Italian language - the Tyrolean identity was one that included speakers of both languages.

The same could be said about many regions of Italy. Whether that means we should go back to pre-1861 divisions is another question, but some in Italy don't seem to completely hate the idea.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying about Welschtirol. I didn't know about that.

[Tender Branson]

  Right, I was referring to Austria keeping what would roughly match the "language frontier" at the time.  Having the Sudetenland joining the new Austria would be the trickier part, basically adding  a  C shaped chunk of territory onto the top of the new republic.

Why would the current "Sudetenland" even want to join Austria ? That makes no sense. It's as if you ask Texas to join Mexico. The current area of the Sudetenland is virtually 100% Czech, unlike South Tyrol - which still shares a lot with North Tyrol and Austria, incl. roughly the same dialect and its parties. But still, South Tyrol should not join Austria - but rather become independent. Staying with Italy is "uncool" because they are a net payer, sending the most money to Rome and the poor South. Joining Austria would be roughly the same, being one of the richest regions in Austria that Faymann and Co. would just milk ...

[ingemann]

  A couple thoughts.  A conserva-green could be  a supporter of the Ecological Democrats in Germany perhaps?  IIRC they once got 3% of the vote in a Bavarian parliamentary election.  
   Concerning Austria, its a shame that it wasn't allowed to keep the northern half of the South Tyrol and at least part of the Sudetenland after world war one.  Merging the southern and western part of the Sudetenland would have created a really funky border, but would have been the just decision, clearly, in terms of ethnic self determination.
    Some of my best memories of trips to Europe are from Austria.  A week spent on the Worthersee when I was 15, visiting the Salzburg area and then Vienna when I was a college student.
I hope to visit in the next few years as well.

Why on earth would anyone split South Tyrol in half? The whole of South Tyrol was at the time, and is still today safe for Bozen, ethnically homogenous German Tyrolean.

You do realize South Tyrol includes the (overwhelmingly Italian) Trentino?

When Austrians speak of South Tyrol, nobody includes Trentino.

South Tyrol is only the nothern part of Trentino-Alto-Adige.

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The problem with that is that Überetsch-Unterland is 64% German speaking, while Bozen is 26% German. So Bozen plus Überetsch-Unterland would be 45-50% German speaking. Of course some serious gerrymanding where only the Adige valley in Überetsch-Unterland was included we would see a clearer Italian majority.

[Cranberry]

Historically, the people in the Trentino felt foremost as Tyroleans, and then as speakers of the Italian language - the Tyrolean identity was one that included speakers of both languages.

The same could be said about many regions of Italy. Whether that means we should go back to pre-1861 divisions is another question, but some in Italy don't seem to completely hate the idea.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying about Welschtirol. I didn't know about that.

Yes indeed, and maybe that's just me being biased, but the Tyrol is a distinct entity from both Italy and Austria; and this sentiment is still present also in the Trentino, albeit obviously far weaker than in North and South Tyrol.

The problem with that is that Überetsch-Unterland is 64% German speaking, while Bozen is 26% German. So Bozen plus Überetsch-Unterland would be 45-50% German speaking. Of course some serious gerrymanding where only the Adige valley in Überetsch-Unterland was included we would see a clearer Italian majority.

Even within the Überetsch-Unterland district, the Italian-speaking population is distributed extremely disproportionally - they have a large majority in the industrial Bozen suburb of Leifers/Laives, as well as in the town Salurn/Salorno, which is the border town between South Tyrol and the Trentino. In the other municipalities, they are not really found in any significantly larger concentrations in the other towns, even down in the valley - Kurtatsch for example only has 3% Italian-speakers; and it doesn't get higher than the roughly 30% Italian-speakers in Neumarkt, the district's central town.

[Georg Ebner]

The terminus "WelschTirol" is avoided by Austrian historians, because it was (ab)used by the GermanNationalists (but also by proAustrian  ItalianSpeakers like DeGaspari) and rejected by the ProItalians. Also, before Napoleon the count of Tyrol (=Habsburg) was de iure only the sheriff of the nominally independent dioceses of Trento and Bressano/Brixen, which covered a majority of present-day Trentino and were "confederated" with Tyrol. De facto both were dependent on Tyrol/Austria.

[rob in cal]

   Tender, in terms of the Sudetenland I was referring to the immediate post World War One era, not now, thus from before the ethnic cleansing of the Sudetenland of 1945-1946.

[Simfan34]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8--cZEq-vwU

Powerful stuff,

This is a brilliant programme!