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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2015, 05:32:38 PM »

I'd actually argue that, by and large and with obvious exceptions like Yankee, it's the newer players that are far more conservative in terms of reform than those of us who've been around a disgustingly long time and know Atlasia's played itself out.

Then perhaps those are tired should move on and let the newbies have their fun rather than ruin the game for everyone. Or at the very least come forth with new proposals.

     The problem with that suggestion is that it would require them to realize there are other people in the world, not all of whom are exactly the same as them.
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Leinad
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« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2015, 06:35:34 PM »

Neither I, nor you, nor anyone at the Constitutional Convention supports maintaining the existing state of affairs; we merely differ in the extent to which the system must be rebuilt.

This is an important point. We all want reform (I'm not sure if anyone supports the status quo long-term) we just have a plethora of differing ideas how to do it. And I think that's a good thing--the more variety the better! If we have enough people advocated different plans, maybe we could come together and find a plan that minimizes the downsides and maximizes the upsides of both. The point is that it won't be an echo-chamber, which is a very good thing. I hate echo-chambers.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2015, 09:12:43 PM »

I'd actually argue that, by and large and with obvious exceptions like Yankee, it's the newer players that are far more conservative in terms of reform than those of us who've been around a disgustingly long time and know Atlasia's played itself out.

Then perhaps those are tired should move on and let the newbies have their fun rather than ruin the game for everyone. Or at the very least come forth with new proposals.

I wouldn't be a delegate at the ConCon if I didn't have new proposals!
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #128 on: October 07, 2015, 10:19:07 PM »

Also can someone give a good reason why someone like Verin, who's been championing radical change in Atlasia for the better part of a decade, is not a delegate?

Because the Senate, in its infinite wisdom, has made participating in the Convention an impossibility for all but people with too much time on their hands.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #129 on: October 07, 2015, 11:38:09 PM »

Also can someone give a good reason why someone like Verin, who's been championing radical change in Atlasia for the better part of a decade, is not a delegate?

Because the Senate, in its infinite wisdom, has made participating in the Convention an impossibility for all but people with too much time on their hands.

Maybe you needed to hug a few more people. That usually works for ya.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #130 on: October 09, 2015, 08:22:12 AM »

Also can someone give a good reason why someone like Verin, who's been championing radical change in Atlasia for the better part of a decade, is not a delegate?

Because the Senate, in its infinite wisdom, has made participating in the Convention an impossibility for all but people with too much time on their hands.

Maybe you needed to hug a few more people. That usually works for ya.

*hughughug* Grin Cheesy Grin
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Türkisblau
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« Reply #131 on: October 10, 2015, 03:35:15 AM »

Quite odd coming from Confederate Conservative.

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Poirot
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« Reply #132 on: October 28, 2015, 09:05:57 PM »

The convention should be a place to discuss things. It looks like the Carca map is already decided.
It is insulting to read that people just had to participate in the past in that lobby group to consolidate to three regions when you didn't share the goal of reducing to three regions. So no, not all people have spoken on potential map. It probably doesn't matter much because it's already decided like it's been pushed for years.
 
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #133 on: October 28, 2015, 09:09:22 PM »

     I agree, settling on the CARCA map because it is the CARCA map is unfair to a great many people who either are unenthusiastic about consolidation or were simply not there. My hope is that it will only be used as a starting point and we will branch out from there.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #134 on: October 28, 2015, 09:20:39 PM »

Literally the only other arguments that come up in contrast to the CARCA map have been and are going to be:

"Well I don't like where my state is, so let's change everything to move my state into another region and pretend like the most detailed consolidation process that occurred twice over two years is no more legitimate than my personal wishes".

CARCA was supposed to leave everybody a bit upset, but at the same time, it balanced the wishes of multiple parties, people and interests as best as could be done. When something works, you know it has worked because nobody is ecstatic but everybody can live with it (and no, the people who are opposed to the process in general don't count in that).
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #135 on: October 28, 2015, 09:25:04 PM »

When somebody is upset, requests a change, and gets their wishes, then the result of it is going to be that somebody else is now going to be upset, and they're going to want to do the same thing. Then you end up in an endless tug of war where everybody just fusses because caving in to those initial wishes gives everybody the feeling that they, too, can get their way. This is why - combined with the thoroughness of the two CARCA processes - that I've generally steered clear away from entertaining the wishes of everybody who doesn't think the map is perfect.

If anybody here has ran an organization and you send out via email or have a conversation in person with a group of volunteers, asking them "what time/date works best for you?", then you know how it works. Everybody throws out a time and date, followed by some people saying "oh, I can't attend that because I have [xxx]" and no matter what date or time gets picked, somebody isn't going to make it. It's the same process here. You balance out the interests, make the best well-rounded determination, and the people who can't make it...oh well!
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #136 on: October 28, 2015, 09:57:19 PM »

I laid forward a sound argument on why Kansas is a better fit in the South with Missouri and Oklahoma. So far there hasn't been a compelling argument against anything I said, just shouts that I (and others) should sit down and shut up because a different group of citizens, not the ConCon delegates, already picked a map. These are debates that should be held.
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« Reply #137 on: October 28, 2015, 10:01:02 PM »

Literally the only other arguments that come up in contrast to the CARCA map have been and are going to be:

"Well I don't like where my state is, so let's change everything to move my state into another region and pretend like the most detailed consolidation process that occurred twice over two years is no more legitimate than my personal wishes".

CARCA was supposed to leave everybody a bit upset, but at the same time, it balanced the wishes of multiple parties, people and interests as best as could be done. When something works, you know it has worked because nobody is ecstatic but everybody can live with it (and no, the people who are opposed to the process in general don't count in that).

My opposition to the CARCA map goes beyond where it placed my state. It goes to the place of I oppose and will always oppose consolidation. Could we have flipped a state or two from one region to another? Yes. I simply think that an issue like this should be one of those instances where the most direct of democracy is applied and it's has been this way numerous times. The people spoke and they have defeated consolidation. Now it's in the hands of 25 of Atlasias finest political minds and a simple majority of them blows the will of the people out of the water. Their only recourse may be voting against ratification. I hope this one issue isn't the cause of failing to make the reforms we need to make this game all she can be. Regardless of political stripe.  
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #138 on: October 28, 2015, 10:13:25 PM »

Literally the only other arguments that come up in contrast to the CARCA map have been and are going to be:

"Well I don't like where my state is, so let's change everything to move my state into another region and pretend like the most detailed consolidation process that occurred twice over two years is no more legitimate than my personal wishes".

CARCA was supposed to leave everybody a bit upset, but at the same time, it balanced the wishes of multiple parties, people and interests as best as could be done. When something works, you know it has worked because nobody is ecstatic but everybody can live with it (and no, the people who are opposed to the process in general don't count in that).

My opposition to the CARCA map goes beyond where it placed my state. It goes to the place of I oppose and will always oppose consolidation. Could we have flipped a state or two from one region to another? Yes. I simply think that an issue like this should be one of those instances where the most direct of democracy is applied and it's has been this way numerous times. The people spoke and they have defeated consolidation. Now it's in the hands of 25 of Atlasias finest political minds and a simple majority of them blows the will of the people out of the water. Their only recourse may be voting against ratification. I hope this one issue isn't the cause of failing to make the reforms we need to make this game all she can be. Regardless of political stripe.  

Then read the last sentence of mine again. Both the overwhelming majority of the game and the delegates agree consolidation is necessary, so if you cast a vote against ratification based on that, then that's your choice. I know radical conservatives such as yourself like to make-up this concept of "the will of the people" out of nowhere and always align their supposed beliefs with your own, but it's not true that everyone disagrees with the map - a representative sample comprising 1/5 of the game supported its design not once, but twice, and a majority in a comparable number of people support it in the ConCon. Acting as if the people in both of these cases are completely out of line with the electorate at-large is ridiculous, as they were selected to represent them based on multiple criteria. I guess you're the same guy who doesn't believe polls because only 1,000 people were asked a question.

In no way, shape or form should your amending of the map for the state of your residence then be taken into account if you're essentially admitting "I don't agree with any of this anyway and so I'm just trying to gum up the works".
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #139 on: October 28, 2015, 10:14:29 PM »

Frankly, the ConCon has been poorly managed thus far. I don't think that's anybody's fault in particular: we just failed to anticipate what it would be like to have 25 people advocating for their own individual reform plan all at once. I agree with Tmth and PiT that every delegate should have a voice, but there does need to be a streamlining process to that the whole Convention doesn't dissolve into chaos.

I said this when the Convention first opened, and I'll say it again: at this stage in the game, we should not be trying to draft the final text of the Constitution. Formal, written amendments like the ones we use to influence legislation in the Senate and the Regional legislatures are bound to fail at this point (as we can see from the secession debate and now the debate over the Regional map) because we still have not agreed on a forward strategy. Rather than introducing formal amendments1, we should instead agree on all the major points via principle votes: then we can choose a "Committee on Style" to fancy it up.

1 I know, I know, I did it it. It was a moment of weakness!
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #140 on: October 28, 2015, 10:20:19 PM »

I laid forward a sound argument on why Kansas is a better fit in the South with Missouri and Oklahoma. So far there hasn't been a compelling argument against anything I said, just shouts that I (and others) should sit down and shut up because a different group of citizens, not the ConCon delegates, already picked a map. These are debates that should be held.

There's a multi-page argument I had with windjammer a month or two ago somewhere that explained my take on how current population figures shouldn't be the sole basis for how the maps are drawn because population will balance out if we implement regulations that ensure competitiveness (such as automatic reductions of legislative seats in regions that become too big or too small). As I said in the thread, there will be a natural balancing act take place once the regions are formed that will help balance some of this out.

However, the western region as proposed with the removal of KS, MN & IA would leave the western region less populated than the Pacific and Midwest combined are right now: with just 28 out of 144 people. While I have vociferously argued - essentially in defense of what you believe - that current population shouldn't be treated as a golden god in determining maps, there do still remain long-term baselines in how various segments of the game are organically populated. If we move to a three-region map and one region organically features less than 20% of the game's population that also just happens to be historically the least-populated area of the game, then the legislative seat regulation mechanisms have to be mandatory and must be designated prior to ratification (and not just as "the Senate can decide the specifics later").

Otherwise, a future Senate could just object to the notion based on one of the many pro-regional arguments we have heard for the past two years, gum up the works, and leave that western region in terrible shape (while simultaneously providing no direct incentive for people in over-populated regions to relocate there).
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« Reply #141 on: October 28, 2015, 10:27:33 PM »

Literally the only other arguments that come up in contrast to the CARCA map have been and are going to be:

"Well I don't like where my state is, so let's change everything to move my state into another region and pretend like the most detailed consolidation process that occurred twice over two years is no more legitimate than my personal wishes".

CARCA was supposed to leave everybody a bit upset, but at the same time, it balanced the wishes of multiple parties, people and interests as best as could be done. When something works, you know it has worked because nobody is ecstatic but everybody can live with it (and no, the people who are opposed to the process in general don't count in that).

My opposition to the CARCA map goes beyond where it placed my state. It goes to the place of I oppose and will always oppose consolidation. Could we have flipped a state or two from one region to another? Yes. I simply think that an issue like this should be one of those instances where the most direct of democracy is applied and it's has been this way numerous times. The people spoke and they have defeated consolidation. Now it's in the hands of 25 of Atlasias finest political minds and a simple majority of them blows the will of the people out of the water. Their only recourse may be voting against ratification. I hope this one issue isn't the cause of failing to make the reforms we need to make this game all she can be. Regardless of political stripe.  

Then read the last sentence of mine again. Both the overwhelming majority of the game and the delegates agree consolidation is necessary, so if you cast a vote against ratification based on that, then that's your choice. I know radical conservatives such as yourself like to make-up this concept of "the will of the people" out of nowhere and always align their supposed beliefs with your own, but it's not true that everyone disagrees with the map - a representative sample comprising 1/5 of the game supported its design not once, but twice, and a majority in a comparable number of people support it in the ConCon. Acting as if the people in both of these cases are completely out of line with the electorate at-large is ridiculous, as they were selected to represent them based on multiple criteria. I guess you're the same guy who doesn't believe polls because only 1,000 people were asked a question.

In no way, shape or form should your amending of the map for the state of your residence then be taken into account if you're essentially admitting "I don't agree with any of this anyway and so I'm just trying to gum up the works".

The problem is you don't count those who oppose consolidation. The reason consolidation has failed is it was taken through the constitutional processes and it didn't have enough regions (by vote of their citizens)  voting to ratify consolidation. I'm not trying to " gum up the works" one bit. If we're gonna consolidate we should see it from the view of the folks who don't (for whatever reason).
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #142 on: October 28, 2015, 10:45:29 PM »

Literally the only other arguments that come up in contrast to the CARCA map have been and are going to be:

"Well I don't like where my state is, so let's change everything to move my state into another region and pretend like the most detailed consolidation process that occurred twice over two years is no more legitimate than my personal wishes".

CARCA was supposed to leave everybody a bit upset, but at the same time, it balanced the wishes of multiple parties, people and interests as best as could be done. When something works, you know it has worked because nobody is ecstatic but everybody can live with it (and no, the people who are opposed to the process in general don't count in that).

My opposition to the CARCA map goes beyond where it placed my state. It goes to the place of I oppose and will always oppose consolidation. Could we have flipped a state or two from one region to another? Yes. I simply think that an issue like this should be one of those instances where the most direct of democracy is applied and it's has been this way numerous times. The people spoke and they have defeated consolidation. Now it's in the hands of 25 of Atlasias finest political minds and a simple majority of them blows the will of the people out of the water. Their only recourse may be voting against ratification. I hope this one issue isn't the cause of failing to make the reforms we need to make this game all she can be. Regardless of political stripe.  

Then read the last sentence of mine again. Both the overwhelming majority of the game and the delegates agree consolidation is necessary, so if you cast a vote against ratification based on that, then that's your choice. I know radical conservatives such as yourself like to make-up this concept of "the will of the people" out of nowhere and always align their supposed beliefs with your own, but it's not true that everyone disagrees with the map - a representative sample comprising 1/5 of the game supported its design not once, but twice, and a majority in a comparable number of people support it in the ConCon. Acting as if the people in both of these cases are completely out of line with the electorate at-large is ridiculous, as they were selected to represent them based on multiple criteria. I guess you're the same guy who doesn't believe polls because only 1,000 people were asked a question.

In no way, shape or form should your amending of the map for the state of your residence then be taken into account if you're essentially admitting "I don't agree with any of this anyway and so I'm just trying to gum up the works".

The problem is you don't count those who oppose consolidation. The reason consolidation has failed is it was taken through the constitutional processes and it didn't have enough regions (by vote of their citizens)  voting to ratify consolidation. I'm not trying to " gum up the works" one bit. If we're gonna consolidate we should see it from the view of the folks who don't (for whatever reason).

Pray tell: how do you honor "the will of the people" who support consolidation and simultaneously "see it from the view of the folks who don't" support consolidation while either consolidating or not consolidating? That literally makes no sense - somebody's getting burned no matter what. In that case, the majority view is the direction. If you don't want to consolidate, then you're not going to be happy with consolidation no matter what. If you don't want to consolidate, then you're not going to be happy no matter how many states are moved about. The nation supports it - by margins much greater than before and across ideologies more diverse than it was then - so honoring the will of the people is to consolidate, pure and simple.
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« Reply #143 on: October 28, 2015, 11:42:20 PM »

Literally the only other arguments that come up in contrast to the CARCA map have been and are going to be:

"Well I don't like where my state is, so let's change everything to move my state into another region and pretend like the most detailed consolidation process that occurred twice over two years is no more legitimate than my personal wishes".

CARCA was supposed to leave everybody a bit upset, but at the same time, it balanced the wishes of multiple parties, people and interests as best as could be done. When something works, you know it has worked because nobody is ecstatic but everybody can live with it (and no, the people who are opposed to the process in general don't count in that).

My opposition to the CARCA map goes beyond where it placed my state. It goes to the place of I oppose and will always oppose consolidation. Could we have flipped a state or two from one region to another? Yes. I simply think that an issue like this should be one of those instances where the most direct of democracy is applied and it's has been this way numerous times. The people spoke and they have defeated consolidation. Now it's in the hands of 25 of Atlasias finest political minds and a simple majority of them blows the will of the people out of the water. Their only recourse may be voting against ratification. I hope this one issue isn't the cause of failing to make the reforms we need to make this game all she can be. Regardless of political stripe.  

Then read the last sentence of mine again. Both the overwhelming majority of the game and the delegates agree consolidation is necessary, so if you cast a vote against ratification based on that, then that's your choice. I know radical conservatives such as yourself like to make-up this concept of "the will of the people" out of nowhere and always align their supposed beliefs with your own, but it's not true that everyone disagrees with the map - a representative sample comprising 1/5 of the game supported its design not once, but twice, and a majority in a comparable number of people support it in the ConCon. Acting as if the people in both of these cases are completely out of line with the electorate at-large is ridiculous, as they were selected to represent them based on multiple criteria. I guess you're the same guy who doesn't believe polls because only 1,000 people were asked a question.

In no way, shape or form should your amending of the map for the state of your residence then be taken into account if you're essentially admitting "I don't agree with any of this anyway and so I'm just trying to gum up the works".

The problem is you don't count those who oppose consolidation. The reason consolidation has failed is it was taken through the constitutional processes and it didn't have enough regions (by vote of their citizens)  voting to ratify consolidation. I'm not trying to " gum up the works" one bit. If we're gonna consolidate we should see it from the view of the folks who don't (for whatever reason).

Pray tell: how do you honor "the will of the people" who support consolidation and simultaneously "see it from the view of the folks who don't" support consolidation while either consolidating or not consolidating? That literally makes no sense - somebody's getting burned no matter what. In that case, the majority view is the direction. If you don't want to consolidate, then you're not going to be happy with consolidation no matter what. If you don't want to consolidate, then you're not going to be happy no matter how many states are moved about. The nation supports it - by margins much greater than before and across ideologies more diverse than it was then - so honoring the will of the people is to consolidate, pure and simple.


It's a fine line I walk Griff. The regions each have their own unique culture beyond that of being Atlasians. Just look at who wins and who loses should consolidation occur. The Northeast and South come out as complete winners. The Midwest and Pacific are merged and thus both can preserve their identities while forming a new one. So a merged Midwest/West wins.

Then you come to the Mideast. What does the Mideast get out of the deal? Partitioned among all three quite likely.  That is a loss. Our unique Mideastern culture subsumed by the force of law and rendered irrelevant. Yes the majority of the nation wants it but we have our Democratic Republican system to respect and protect the rights of divergent views on how we assemble our body politick. Because of those processes, consolidation has failed. Shouldn't those who oppose consolidation have a voice while we go through the ConCon?
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Türkisblau
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« Reply #144 on: October 28, 2015, 11:48:37 PM »

I for one object with New Mexico belonging in the same region as Arizona... these two rivals sharing a region just can not stand.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #145 on: October 29, 2015, 01:06:18 AM »

As predicted, and even with the CARCA, the greatest threat to consolidation would be the allocation of states to the new regions.
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« Reply #146 on: October 29, 2015, 01:29:10 PM »

As predicted, and even with the CARCA, the greatest threat to consolidation would be the allocation of states to the new regions.

Also another reason why I oppose consolidation.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #147 on: October 29, 2015, 02:28:32 PM »

The most frustrating thing is, we've had a plan in place to revitalize the game in place for 2 years and we're still arguing over making some very basic changes.

The game has degraded to a point where it's hard to get many people to play it. You'd think that would be a wake up call to most people but to my amazement some still don't get it, and I'm too old and too tired to keep pounding my head against a wall.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #148 on: October 29, 2015, 03:26:08 PM »

The most frustrating thing is, we've had a plan in place to revitalize the game in place for 2 years and we're still arguing over making some very basic changes.

The game has degraded to a point where it's hard to get many people to play it. You'd think that would be a wake up call to most people but to my amazement some still don't get it, and I'm too old and too tired to keep pounding my head against a wall.

     I don't like consolidation, but I've accepted that it is part of the plan to revitalize Atlasia. Realistically, I'm prepared to accept what the Convention produces and to make sacrifices for the future of Atlasia. While we may have spirited arguments, I hope that everyone else is at the same place, or else this Convention will likely fail.

     The United States Constitution was ultimately described as a "bundle of compromises". Making everyone happy isn't happening. That is why we all have to compromise.
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« Reply #149 on: October 29, 2015, 03:41:44 PM »

I think we all will accept the outcome of this. My point is, I don't want this effort to be in vain, if we spend all of this time debating only to change a few things and leave the game more or less as it is now.

I want this to be a productive and worthwhile time for all of us. I want to finish and think we've done something good for the long term future of the game. I'm sure we all want that.
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