Constitutional Convention - Commentary thread.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Literally the only other arguments that come up in contrast to the CARCA map have been and are going to be:

"Well I don't like where my state is, so let's change everything to move my state into another region and pretend like the most detailed consolidation process that occurred twice over two years is no more legitimate than my personal wishes".

CARCA was supposed to leave everybody a bit upset, but at the same time, it balanced the wishes of multiple parties, people and interests as best as could be done. When something works, you know it has worked because nobody is ecstatic but everybody can live with it (and no, the people who are opposed to the process in general don't count in that).

My opposition to the CARCA map goes beyond where it placed my state. It goes to the place of I oppose and will always oppose consolidation. Could we have flipped a state or two from one region to another? Yes. I simply think that an issue like this should be one of those instances where the most direct of democracy is applied and it's has been this way numerous times. The people spoke and they have defeated consolidation. Now it's in the hands of 25 of Atlasias finest political minds and a simple majority of them blows the will of the people out of the water. Their only recourse may be voting against ratification. I hope this one issue isn't the cause of failing to make the reforms we need to make this game all she can be. Regardless of political stripe.  

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Literally the only other arguments that come up in contrast to the CARCA map have been and are going to be:

"Well I don't like where my state is, so let's change everything to move my state into another region and pretend like the most detailed consolidation process that occurred twice over two years is no more legitimate than my personal wishes".

CARCA was supposed to leave everybody a bit upset, but at the same time, it balanced the wishes of multiple parties, people and interests as best as could be done. When something works, you know it has worked because nobody is ecstatic but everybody can live with it (and no, the people who are opposed to the process in general don't count in that).

My opposition to the CARCA map goes beyond where it placed my state. It goes to the place of I oppose and will always oppose consolidation. Could we have flipped a state or two from one region to another? Yes. I simply think that an issue like this should be one of those instances where the most direct of democracy is applied and it's has been this way numerous times. The people spoke and they have defeated consolidation. Now it's in the hands of 25 of Atlasias finest political minds and a simple majority of them blows the will of the people out of the water. Their only recourse may be voting against ratification. I hope this one issue isn't the cause of failing to make the reforms we need to make this game all she can be. Regardless of political stripe.  

Then read the last sentence of mine again. Both the overwhelming majority of the game and the delegates agree consolidation is necessary, so if you cast a vote against ratification based on that, then that's your choice. I know radical conservatives such as yourself like to make-up this concept of "the will of the people" out of nowhere and always align their supposed beliefs with your own, but it's not true that everyone disagrees with the map - a representative sample comprising 1/5 of the game supported its design not once, but twice, and a majority in a comparable number of people support it in the ConCon. Acting as if the people in both of these cases are completely out of line with the electorate at-large is ridiculous, as they were selected to represent them based on multiple criteria. I guess you're the same guy who doesn't believe polls because only 1,000 people were asked a question.

In no way, shape or form should your amending of the map for the state of your residence then be taken into account if you're essentially admitting "I don't agree with any of this anyway and so I'm just trying to gum up the works".

The problem is you don't count those who oppose consolidation. The reason consolidation has failed is it was taken through the constitutional processes and it didn't have enough regions (by vote of their citizens)  voting to ratify consolidation. I'm not trying to " gum up the works" one bit. If we're gonna consolidate we should see it from the view of the folks who don't (for whatever reason).

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Literally the only other arguments that come up in contrast to the CARCA map have been and are going to be:

"Well I don't like where my state is, so let's change everything to move my state into another region and pretend like the most detailed consolidation process that occurred twice over two years is no more legitimate than my personal wishes".

CARCA was supposed to leave everybody a bit upset, but at the same time, it balanced the wishes of multiple parties, people and interests as best as could be done. When something works, you know it has worked because nobody is ecstatic but everybody can live with it (and no, the people who are opposed to the process in general don't count in that).

My opposition to the CARCA map goes beyond where it placed my state. It goes to the place of I oppose and will always oppose consolidation. Could we have flipped a state or two from one region to another? Yes. I simply think that an issue like this should be one of those instances where the most direct of democracy is applied and it's has been this way numerous times. The people spoke and they have defeated consolidation. Now it's in the hands of 25 of Atlasias finest political minds and a simple majority of them blows the will of the people out of the water. Their only recourse may be voting against ratification. I hope this one issue isn't the cause of failing to make the reforms we need to make this game all she can be. Regardless of political stripe.  

Then read the last sentence of mine again. Both the overwhelming majority of the game and the delegates agree consolidation is necessary, so if you cast a vote against ratification based on that, then that's your choice. I know radical conservatives such as yourself like to make-up this concept of "the will of the people" out of nowhere and always align their supposed beliefs with your own, but it's not true that everyone disagrees with the map - a representative sample comprising 1/5 of the game supported its design not once, but twice, and a majority in a comparable number of people support it in the ConCon. Acting as if the people in both of these cases are completely out of line with the electorate at-large is ridiculous, as they were selected to represent them based on multiple criteria. I guess you're the same guy who doesn't believe polls because only 1,000 people were asked a question.

In no way, shape or form should your amending of the map for the state of your residence then be taken into account if you're essentially admitting "I don't agree with any of this anyway and so I'm just trying to gum up the works".

The problem is you don't count those who oppose consolidation. The reason consolidation has failed is it was taken through the constitutional processes and it didn't have enough regions (by vote of their citizens)  voting to ratify consolidation. I'm not trying to " gum up the works" one bit. If we're gonna consolidate we should see it from the view of the folks who don't (for whatever reason).

Pray tell: how do you honor "the will of the people" who support consolidation and simultaneously "see it from the view of the folks who don't" support consolidation while either consolidating or not consolidating? That literally makes no sense - somebody's getting burned no matter what. In that case, the majority view is the direction. If you don't want to consolidate, then you're not going to be happy with consolidation no matter what. If you don't want to consolidate, then you're not going to be happy no matter how many states are moved about. The nation supports it - by margins much greater than before and across ideologies more diverse than it was then - so honoring the will of the people is to consolidate, pure and simple.

It's a fine line I walk Griff. The regions each have their own unique culture beyond that of being Atlasians. Just look at who wins and who loses should consolidation occur. The Northeast and South come out as complete winners. The Midwest and Pacific are merged and thus both can preserve their identities while forming a new one. So a merged Midwest/West wins.

Then you come to the Mideast. What does the Mideast get out of the deal? Partitioned among all three quite likely.  That is a loss. Our unique Mideastern culture subsumed by the force of law and rendered irrelevant. Yes the majority of the nation wants it but we have our Democratic Republican system to respect and protect the rights of divergent views on how we assemble our body politick. Because of those processes, consolidation has failed. Shouldn't those who oppose consolidation have a voice while we go through the ConCon?

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

As predicted, and even with the CARCA, the greatest threat to consolidation would be the allocation of states to the new regions.

Also another reason why I oppose consolidation.