Are you anticommunist/anti-Marxist?
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  Are you anticommunist/anti-Marxist?
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Question: Are you anticommunist?
#1
Yes (D)
 
#2
Yes (R)
 
#3
Yes (I)
 
#4
No (D)
 
#5
No (R)
 
#6
No (I)
 
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Total Voters: 125

Author Topic: Are you anticommunist/anti-Marxist?  (Read 6538 times)
TNF
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« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2015, 09:07:30 AM »

@TNF

Have you ever wondered why people want to leave those countries you mentioned?

No. I understand perfectly clear why people would want to escape the thought-policing, bureaucratic despotism of countries like China, the DPRK, Laos, Vietnam, and Cuba. None of those legitimate reasons have often anything to do with wanting to escape from guaranteed medical care, housing, education, etc. Those who flee from those for the 'freedom' of the capitalist market aren't too bright as is.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2015, 09:09:55 AM »

Are you seriously suggesting that workers have it better under Juche, an ideology that doesn't even define itself as communist, than under current capitalist countries? I can on some level understand defence of the other countries - even though I fail to see any remote chance of ceding their power to Trots for literally no reason (as evidenced by the Cuba deal, Vietnam joining TPP and the China Communists becoming effectively identical to the KMT). China has brought a lot of people out of poverty, though a) it was through dreaded neoliberal reforms and b) the whole thing appears to be an elaborate House of Cards (seriously, what rights do workers have in China that they don't have in, like, literally any other country. especially in light of the recent explosion)

But the DPRK, Stalinist usurpation aside, is not remotely worthy of any praise at all! Do you really believe that under the rotting quasi-monarchy that runs that country there is a genuinely radical element that wants what you want? How can you say that one's parents do not influence your outcome on life, when the entire society is reportedly based on castes established generations ago, and that the entire upper strata is literally hierarchical!
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shua
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« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2015, 12:00:10 PM »

only when TNF and Snowstalker remind me how awful it is.
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Stranger in a strange land
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« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2015, 12:26:36 PM »
« Edited: October 01, 2015, 02:30:46 PM by Stranger in a strange land »

No, I am pro-communist/pro-Marxist, because I favor the emancipation of mankind from the shackles of capitalist exploitation, religious dogma, etc, etc.

To those of you who say communism is dead and buried, I'd point you to the five states which are ruled by communist parties and which remain alive and well in the 21st Century, in spite of their bureaucratic deformations. One of those is the People's Republic of China, which in spite of market reforms still has its core industries under state ownership and utilizes economic planning to drive growth. It has performed fairly spectacularly over the past few decades and poses enough of a threat to the bourgeois powers that they've begun to engage in strategies to isolate it (Pivot to Asia, Transpacific Partnership, etc., etc.).


Likewise, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the Republic of Cuba, The Democratic Republic of Laos, and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam all still stand today as testaments to the superiority of planned economies compared to the anarchy of the capitalist market system. In these countries, medical care, housing, and education are guaranteed and not dependent upon who your parents were, where you hail from, or what accent you speak with. In short, these countries have done what the capitalist system will never do, i.e. create a fully functioning welfare state that won't be rolled back the next time a right-wing (or 'left-wing' social democratic/eurocommunist) party is elected to government.

You clearly know very little about the PRC and nothing about the DPRK. To claim that "medical care, housing, and education are guaranteed and not dependent upon who your parents were" is an obscene joke:
- http://www.nknews.org/2015/02/songbun-and-the-five-castes-of-north-korea/.
- http://news.yahoo.com/north-koreas-caste-system-faces-power-wealth-132110225.html.

To say that it's "free of the shackles of religious dogma" is equally laughable:



To reiterate, North Korea is Stalinist only in the methods that the regime uses to control the population. It is NOT a Communist state, and there is nothing left-wing about it.
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Col. Roosevelt
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« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2015, 03:28:51 PM »

To be a Marxist of any kind is to be anti-American.
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SWE
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« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2015, 04:37:36 PM »

I have to say, TNF is making a very good case in this thread in favor of voting yes.

To those of you who say communism is dead and buried, I'd point you to the five states which are ruled by communist parties and which remain alive and well in the 21st Century, in spite of their bureaucratic deformations.

Only 5? Plenty of states have supposedly communist parties in power (Greece, Nepal, and Venezuela off the top of my head), and it's not like arbitrarily declaring these states to be socialist is any more absurd than referring to the Stalinist Beaurocratic collectivist states as such.
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I agree, China has been immensely successful as a capitalist and imperialist state. Not exactly sure what that has to do with the merits of communism?
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No
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The only one of these places where this is even remotely true is Cuba, and even then, you only have to look at their immigration policies to see that they very much do care "where you hail from"

This reeks of the Smiley Sweden is socialist because public roads Smiley argument tbh (just with the democracy part of social democracy removed)
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Yes, the only risk of any gains made in these Marxist-Leninists Revolutions is when the Party beaurocracy decides market reforms are a more effective means of holding onto power.
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Yes, and the Grand Canyon is just a hole in the ground, and WWII was just a minor disagreement.
 
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Whereas being a slave to the state is so much better
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Murica!
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« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2015, 07:38:39 PM »

I have to say, TNF is making a very good case in this thread in favor of voting yes.

To those of you who say communism is dead and buried, I'd point you to the five states which are ruled by communist parties and which remain alive and well in the 21st Century, in spite of their bureaucratic deformations.

Only 5? Plenty of states have supposedly communist parties in power (Greece, Nepal, and Venezuela off the top of my head), and it's not like arbitrarily declaring these states to be socialist is any more absurd than referring to the Stalinist Beaurocratic collectivist states as such.
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I agree, China has been immensely successful as a capitalist and imperialist state. Not exactly sure what that has to do with the merits of communism?
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No
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The only one of these places where this is even remotely true is Cuba, and even then, you only have to look at their immigration policies to see that they very much do care "where you hail from"

This reeks of the Smiley Sweden is socialist because public roads Smiley argument tbh (just with the democracy part of social democracy removed)
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Yes, the only risk of any gains made in these Marxist-Leninists Revolutions is when the Party beaurocracy decides market reforms are a more effective means of holding onto power.
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Yes, and the Grand Canyon is just a hole in the ground, and WWII was just a minor disagreement.
 
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Whereas being a slave to the state is so much better
*like*
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2015, 08:10:56 PM »

Oooooh, boy... It says something when even SWE disagrees with TNF's latest drivel. His slow descent into insanity has really been sad to witness, but at least one can hope that this is his rock bottom.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2015, 08:57:03 PM »

I thought TNF of all people would be complaining about how China and North Korea aren't "really" communist. I guess that shows how little I know...
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Illuminati Blood Drinker
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« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2015, 12:03:35 AM »

We all joked it was only a matter of time until Snowstalker embraced neo-Nazism/white nationalism in a desperate attempt at edginess. But I don't think any of us expected TNF to start paeaning the People's Republic of China and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea in the year of our Lord 2015, my God
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Intell
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« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2015, 07:19:14 AM »

We all joked it was only a matter of time until Snowstalker embraced neo-Nazism/white nationalism in a desperate attempt at edginess. But I don't think any of us expected TNF to start paeaning the People's Republic of China and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea in the year of our Lord 2015, my God

Well to be fair to TNF, I have friends that still believe in communism and they say the Chinese authoritarian,communist government is good, working efficiently and works for the people better than capitalist. They did leave for higher education purposes though and to peruse a better education.

But really, DRPK, that's just f*king insanity.
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traininthedistance
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« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2015, 11:30:00 AM »

Are you seriously suggesting that workers have it better under Juche, an ideology that doesn't even define itself as communist, than under current capitalist countries? I can on some level understand defence of the other countries - even though I fail to see any remote chance of ceding their power to Trots for literally no reason (as evidenced by the Cuba deal, Vietnam joining TPP and the China Communists becoming effectively identical to the KMT). China has brought a lot of people out of poverty, though a) it was through dreaded neoliberal reforms and b) the whole thing appears to be an elaborate House of Cards (seriously, what rights do workers have in China that they don't have in, like, literally any other country. especially in light of the recent explosion)

But the DPRK, Stalinist usurpation aside, is not remotely worthy of any praise at all! Do you really believe that under the rotting quasi-monarchy that runs that country there is a genuinely radical element that wants what you want? How can you say that one's parents do not influence your outcome on life, when the entire society is reportedly based on castes established generations ago, and that the entire upper strata is literally hierarchical!

Psssh, who needs facts when you can just repeat "deformed workers state" over and over again like it's a magical talisman that means something!

(As for the OP's question, I obviously agree with Crab, BRTD, et al)
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The Free North
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« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2015, 11:45:21 AM »

The idea that China is obtaining economic success now due to its SOEs and centrally planned economy  is ludicrous.

TNF cites the 'economic anarchy' of capitalism as a reason for its inferiority.

Let me direct you to the Special Economic Zones dotted around China. Do you know what they are?


....


Economic Anarchy. Because guess what happens in those zones? Provincal governors, granted autonomy from the socialist incompetence in Beijing are essentially competing against each other for jobs and foreign capital. That means no labor laws, no environmental laws, and as little regulation as possible in order to attract money to their provincial regions.

Moreover, this 'anarchy' is indeed the main driver in Chinese growth as the regions not included in the zones are generally poorer than their more capitalist neighbors.

It can't be both ways: Communist China is not succeeding because of its collectivist policies (ignoring the cheap cop-out of Stalinism) and in fact the regions in the country experiencing the fastest growth are exposed to the highest degree of 'economic anarchy'. Since reform efforts began, state owned enterprises have disappeared, collective farms and their associated ills have been chipped away at, and an influx of foreign capital has lifted hundreds of millions of people, including your worker friends out of poverty.
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The Free North
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« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2015, 11:47:14 AM »

Moreover, if all communist states end up in a deformed 'Stalinist bureaucracy', especially given their geopolitical, cultural, and economic diversity, what does that say about the viability of the ideology.
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SWE
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« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2015, 01:01:24 PM »

Moreover, if all communist states end up in a deformed 'Stalinist bureaucracy', especially given their geopolitical, cultural, and economic diversity, what does that say about the viability of the ideology.
Not much, since none of these "communist states" had anything to do with communism.
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RFayette
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« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2015, 02:21:56 PM »

Capitalism and the free market have brought more people out of poverty than any other institution ever devised.  The fundamental precepts of property rights, free trade, the rule of law, and private ownership are the cornerstones of a free and prosperous society.  Those who want to overthrow said system in favor of an immoral system of communism, in which individual initiative is quashed, faith in almighty God is prohibited, and "everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others." 

I'm proud to call myself anti-communist, and those who continue to defend the failed ideology, and engage in special pleading when trying to justify all of the ideology's failures, are fooling no one but themselves.  I find it deeply ironic that those who are lucky enough to be living in a free society are the ones who complain about the injustices of capitalism.   
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« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2015, 04:02:11 PM »

@TNF

Have you ever wondered why people want to leave those countries you mentioned?

No. I understand perfectly clear why people would want to escape the thought-policing, bureaucratic despotism of countries like China, the DPRK, Laos, Vietnam, and Cuba. None of those legitimate reasons have often anything to do with wanting to escape from guaranteed medical care, housing, education, etc. Those who flee from those for the 'freedom' of the capitalist market aren't too bright as is.

If I lived in one of those countries I would be heading for a capitalist country as quickly as I could.  I think it's no coincidence that the countries that have embraced the capitalist market are much better places to live than the countries that don't.  Capitalism actually helps bring nations out of poverty.  Look at the wealthy nations in the world, and you will see the nations that are more capitalist.  Western v. Eastern Europe, North v. South Korea, US and Canada v. most of Latin America.  The whole world can enjoy economic prosperity if they free the markets.
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Yelnoc
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« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2015, 04:13:05 PM »

TNF, please exit whatever ML cult you've joined. I'm seriously concerned for you.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2015, 07:41:37 PM »

In these countries, medical care, housing, and education are guaranteed and not dependent upon who your parents were, where you hail from, or what accent you speak with. In short, these countries have done what the capitalist system will never do, i.e. create a fully functioning welfare state that won't be rolled back the next time a right-wing (or 'left-wing' social democratic/eurocommunist) party is elected to government.
Apart from the obvious WTF regarding the North Korea apologism... You know about the situation in countries like the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, and Austria, right? These are countries where "medical care, housing, and education are guaranteed", countries that have had a "fully functioning welfare state" for over 50 years, long enough to ensure they won't be rolled back even when a "right-wing" coalition is elected to government. I can understand why you're fed up with the situation in the US, even if I would disagree with you, but what is your real problem with the Scandinavian welfare-state model? I genuinely try to understand it.
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2015, 07:58:11 PM »

Naturally, yes.

I understand that communism in practice is not what Marx intended. However, when dozens of experiments in putting his philosophy into practice have ended in mass murder without variation, I stand opposed to the philosophy as a whole - simply because we as a species have proven unfit for it.

Communism as a political philosophy should be as universally unacceptable as fascism.
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Intell
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« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2015, 08:14:44 PM »

Naturally, yes.

I understand that communism in practice is not what Marx intended. However, when dozens of experiments in putting his philosophy into practice have ended in mass murder without variation, I stand opposed to the philosophy as a whole - simply because we as a species have proven unfit for it.

Communism as a political philosophy should be as universally unacceptable as fascism.

Same could be said about Jesus Christ and religion though.
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2015, 08:20:48 PM »

Naturally, yes.

I understand that communism in practice is not what Marx intended. However, when dozens of experiments in putting his philosophy into practice have ended in mass murder without variation, I stand opposed to the philosophy as a whole - simply because we as a species have proven unfit for it.

Communism as a political philosophy should be as universally unacceptable as fascism.

Same could be said about Jesus Christ and religion though.

I would agree that Christianity and Marxism have both made for invariably horrific forms of government over the years. Both are deeply unsuited for being imposed on a general population.
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Intell
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« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2015, 08:33:26 PM »

Naturally, yes.

I understand that communism in practice is not what Marx intended. However, when dozens of experiments in putting his philosophy into practice have ended in mass murder without variation, I stand opposed to the philosophy as a whole - simply because we as a species have proven unfit for it.

Communism as a political philosophy should be as universally unacceptable as fascism.

Same could be said about Jesus Christ and religion though.

I would agree that Christianity and Marxism have both made for invariably horrific forms of government over the years. Both are deeply unsuited for being imposed on a general population.

My point was that the philosophy should not be judged by the people that act in the name of the philosophy, but what the philosophy is itself and what the intention of the writer of the philosophy is.
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2015, 08:42:52 PM »

Naturally, yes.

I understand that communism in practice is not what Marx intended. However, when dozens of experiments in putting his philosophy into practice have ended in mass murder without variation, I stand opposed to the philosophy as a whole - simply because we as a species have proven unfit for it.

Communism as a political philosophy should be as universally unacceptable as fascism.

Same could be said about Jesus Christ and religion though.

I would agree that Christianity and Marxism have both made for invariably horrific forms of government over the years. Both are deeply unsuited for being imposed on a general population.

My point was that the philosophy should not be judged by the people that act in the name of the philosophy, but what the philosophy is itself and what the intention of the writer of the philosophy is.

I think Communism is a bit different in that Marx clearly intended it to be used as a form of government, but point taken.

Regardless, I believe that at the very least it's proven that Communism cannot work as a form of government without horror ensuing. Too many chances, always the same result.
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« Reply #74 on: October 04, 2015, 12:55:59 AM »

No, I am pro-communist/pro-Marxist, because I favor the emancipation of mankind from the shackles of capitalist exploitation, religious dogma, etc, etc.

To those of you who say communism is dead and buried, I'd point you to the five states which are ruled by communist parties and which remain alive and well in the 21st Century, in spite of their bureaucratic deformations. One of those is the People's Republic of China, which in spite of market reforms still has its core industries under state ownership and utilizes economic planning to drive growth. It has performed fairly spectacularly over the past few decades and poses enough of a threat to the bourgeois powers that they've begun to engage in strategies to isolate it (Pivot to Asia, Transpacific Partnership, etc., etc.).

Likewise, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the Republic of Cuba, The Democratic Republic of Laos, and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam all still stand today as testaments to the superiority of planned economies compared to the anarchy of the capitalist market system. In these countries, medical care, housing, and education are guaranteed and not dependent upon who your parents were, where you hail from, or what accent you speak with. In short, these countries have done what the capitalist system will never do, i.e. create a fully functioning welfare state that won't be rolled back the next time a right-wing (or 'left-wing' social democratic/eurocommunist) party is elected to government.

These countries suffer from bureaucratic deformities and unfortunately are run by Stalinist bureaucracies that deny their populations the right to fully participate in the planning of production and likewise have defects in that they promote stupid, parochial nationalisms as opposed to internationalist politics. But even so, they represent a massive advance compared to capitalist 'democracies' where the only freedom you are guaranteed is the 'freedom' to be a slave to some nonworking parasite.

Hopefully in the 21st Century we'll see political revolution in the states where capitalism has already been overthrown and the subsequent introduction of real workers' democracy there. And likewise, hopefully we'll also see new October Revolutions in the places where capitalism has yet to be overthrown.

You believe North Korea is more free and better then the United States. Please tell me you are joking, You also believe China should have had the same system it had under Mao WOW you really do hate the idea of Freedom.
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