Iran tests new precision-guided ballistic missile
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Author Topic: Iran tests new precision-guided ballistic missile  (Read 3961 times)
MalaspinaGold
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« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2015, 11:29:19 AM »

The irony is that I agree with DavidB on the reason why DavidB should be ended (though I obviously think it should happen on a faster timetable than DavidB). That being said, you really aren't helping your case.
On the reason why I should be "ended"...? That's not so nice Tongue You're probably talking about US foreign aid to Israel and I'm not sure whether you really want a faster timetable than I do, but that's probably a bit too specific a discussion for this thread - my main point is that this decision should ideally be made in Jerusalem, not in Washington.
It's 9 in the morning and the middle of class, give me a break Tongue
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Schadenfreude
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« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2015, 12:34:51 PM »

I mean, I'm not a Stalinist hack like TNF, but the US didn't end the Holocaust even accidentally. All the major death camps were liberated by the Soviets.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3067988/Let-s-Nazi-dogs-Enraged-horrors-Dachau-concentration-camp-arriving-liberate-WWII-prisoners-American-soldiers-executed-50-Germans-cold-blood-reveals-new-book.html

If those guys who committed a war crime out of sheer rage because of what they found at Dachau could read what is being said... I don't even know.  This Israel thing ceased making sense decades ago.

And regardless of how you want to spin and forget the tremendous sacrifices of our boys the fact remains even in your fanciful retelling of history they still did more than the US did for Congo.  Given how much we give Congo after the slaughter of 10 million Congolese and the $3 billion a year we give Israel... I am astonished anyone would have the guts to say Israel is "owed."  That's gratitude for you.  Time for the US taxpayer to get out of this game.
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MalaspinaGold
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« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2015, 12:47:45 PM »
« Edited: October 13, 2015, 12:50:33 PM by MalaspinaGold »

I mean, I'm not a Stalinist hack like TNF, but the US didn't end the Holocaust even accidentally. All the major death camps were liberated by the Soviets.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3067988/Let-s-Nazi-dogs-Enraged-horrors-Dachau-concentration-camp-arriving-liberate-WWII-prisoners-American-soldiers-executed-50-Germans-cold-blood-reveals-new-book.html

If those guys who committed a war crime out of sheer rage because of what they found at Dachau could read what is being said... I don't even know.  This Israel thing ceased making sense decades ago.

And regardless of how you want to spin and forget the tremendous sacrifices of our boys the fact remains even in your fanciful retelling of history they still did more than the US did for Congo.  Given how much we give Congo after the slaughter of 10 million Congolese and the $3 billion a year we give Israel... I am astonished anyone would have the guts to say Israel is "owed."  That's gratitude for you.  Time for the US taxpayer to get out of this game.
I never said Israel is "owed" anything, you're making stuff up now.
And that's one concentration camp, against how many that were liberated by the Soviets? A dozen? Furthermore, if America really gave a finks about rescuing Jews, they would not have shut them out. As it is, sure, America closed down a few concentration camps. But acting like Jews should be "grateful" because some angry soldiers executed a few dozen sadists is pathetic revisionism in so many ways.

Also the obligatory LOLDailyMail.
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Green Line
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2015, 12:52:52 PM »

I mean, I'm not a Stalinist hack like TNF, but the US didn't end the Holocaust even accidentally. All the major death camps were liberated by the Soviets.

Quote
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3067988/Let-s-Nazi-dogs-Enraged-horrors-Dachau-concentration-camp-arriving-liberate-WWII-prisoners-American-soldiers-executed-50-Germans-cold-blood-reveals-new-book.html

If those guys who committed a war crime out of sheer rage because of what they found at Dachau could read what is being said... I don't even know.  This Israel thing ceased making sense decades ago.

And regardless of how you want to spin and forget the tremendous sacrifices of our boys the fact remains even in your fanciful retelling of history they still did more than the US did for Congo.  Given how much we give Congo after the slaughter of 10 million Congolese and the $3 billion a year we give Israel... I am astonished anyone would have the guts to say Israel is "owed."  That's gratitude for you.  Time for the US taxpayer to get out of this game.
I never said Israel is "owed" anything, you're making stuff up now.
And that's one concentration camp, against how many that were liberated by the Soviets? A dozen? Furthermore, if America really gave a finks about rescuing Jews, they would not have shut them out. As it is, sure, America closed down a few concentration camps. But acting like Jews should be "grateful" because some angry soldiers executed a few dozen sadists is pathetic in so many ways.

Also the obligatory LOLDailyMail.


Its mostly the fault of geography that the Soviets liberated most of the camps.  They were mainly east of Berlin and in the way of the advancing Soviet army.  Im not really sure what America was supposed to do to get to them any earlier, they were deep behind German lines. Thats not to say that what America did was ok, more certainly could have been done for the Jews, but thats war.  Not every decision made is going to be perfect in the fog of war
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MalaspinaGold
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« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2015, 12:56:56 PM »
« Edited: October 13, 2015, 12:58:43 PM by MalaspinaGold »

I mean, I'm not a Stalinist hack like TNF, but the US didn't end the Holocaust even accidentally. All the major death camps were liberated by the Soviets.

Quote
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3067988/Let-s-Nazi-dogs-Enraged-horrors-Dachau-concentration-camp-arriving-liberate-WWII-prisoners-American-soldiers-executed-50-Germans-cold-blood-reveals-new-book.html

If those guys who committed a war crime out of sheer rage because of what they found at Dachau could read what is being said... I don't even know.  This Israel thing ceased making sense decades ago.

And regardless of how you want to spin and forget the tremendous sacrifices of our boys the fact remains even in your fanciful retelling of history they still did more than the US did for Congo.  Given how much we give Congo after the slaughter of 10 million Congolese and the $3 billion a year we give Israel... I am astonished anyone would have the guts to say Israel is "owed."  That's gratitude for you.  Time for the US taxpayer to get out of this game.
I never said Israel is "owed" anything, you're making stuff up now.
And that's one concentration camp, against how many that were liberated by the Soviets? A dozen? Furthermore, if America really gave a finks about rescuing Jews, they would not have shut them out. As it is, sure, America closed down a few concentration camps. But acting like Jews should be "grateful" because some angry soldiers executed a few dozen sadists is pathetic in so many ways.

Also the obligatory LOLDailyMail.


Its mostly the fault of geography that the Soviets liberated most of the camps.  They were mainly east of Berlin and in the way of the advancing Soviet army.  Im not really sure what America was supposed to do to get to them any earlier, they were deep behind German lines. Thats not to say that what America did was ok, more certainly could have been done for the Jews, but thats war.  Not every decision made is going to be perfect in the fog of war
What I'm arguing against is Schadenfreude's pathetic revisionism that America did something other than the absolute minimum to win the war and therefore the Jews should feel grateful. It's condescending and patronizing in the absolute worst sort of way. It's the intellectual equivalent of arguing Stalin was good for the Jews because he liberated Auschwitz.
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Green Line
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2015, 01:05:33 PM »
« Edited: October 13, 2015, 01:15:56 PM by Green Line »

Ok.  To be fair, it was argued on the first page that the US somehow created the mess in Israel by not stopping the Holocaust, and is therefore responsible for Israel now.  Thats also a stretch IMO, and how this whole debate started.  Anyways I don't think anyone here is going to change their minds so lets all leave in peace!
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MalaspinaGold
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« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2015, 01:11:23 PM »

Ok.  To be fair, it was argued on the first page that the US somehow the mess in Israel by not stopping the Holocaust, and is therefore responsible for Israel now.  Thats also a stretch IMO, and how this whole debate started.  Anyways I don't think anyone here is going to change their minds so lets all leave in peace!
Well yes, that sounds like something RayGoldfield would say, and is obviously ridiculous. In my opinion, the world shouldn't owe Israel anything, and Israel shouldn't owe the world anything. It works out best for both sides that way.
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Schadenfreude
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« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2015, 01:43:27 PM »

What I'm arguing against is Schadenfreude's pathetic revisionism that America did something other than the absolute minimum to win the war and therefore the Jews should feel grateful. It's condescending and patronizing in the absolute worst sort of way. It's the intellectual equivalent of arguing Stalin was good for the Jews because he liberated Auschwitz.

Is it a language problem?  Do you not understand the word "proportional"?  Or is this just an attempt not to answer the question?

Proportionally the United States did more to end the Holocaust than they did to end the massacre of the Congolese... which involved millions more lives.  In 2015 proportionally the United States gives way more foreign aid to Israel than Congo.  That is a fact.  How that entitles President Obama to being disrespected in his house on national TV by the Prime Minster of Israel I still don't understand.  The United States owes Israel nothing.  The Israelis should be grateful for $3 billion/yr and the perpetual vote on the security council.
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MalaspinaGold
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« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2015, 01:46:34 PM »

What I'm arguing against is Schadenfreude's pathetic revisionism that America did something other than the absolute minimum to win the war and therefore the Jews should feel grateful. It's condescending and patronizing in the absolute worst sort of way. It's the intellectual equivalent of arguing Stalin was good for the Jews because he liberated Auschwitz.

Is it a language problem?  Do you not understand the word "proportional"?  Or is this just an attempt not to answer the question?

Proportionally the United States did more to end the Holocaust than they did to end the massacre of the Congolese... which involved millions more lives.  In 2015 proportionally the United States gives way more foreign aid to Israel than Congo.  That is a fact.  How that entitles President Obama to being disrespected in his house on national TV by the Prime Minster of Israel I still don't understand.  The United States owes Israel nothing.  The Israelis should be grateful for $3 billion/yr and the perpetual vote on the security council.
That's because we were never at war with Congo.  Otherwise we never would have lifted a finger.

And I was of course opposed to Netanyahu's speech, you're really flailing wildly and missing aren't you?
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Schadenfreude
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« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2015, 02:26:16 PM »

What I'm arguing against is Schadenfreude's pathetic revisionism that America did something other than the absolute minimum to win the war and therefore the Jews should feel grateful. It's condescending and patronizing in the absolute worst sort of way. It's the intellectual equivalent of arguing Stalin was good for the Jews because he liberated Auschwitz.

Is it a language problem?  Do you not understand the word "proportional"?  Or is this just an attempt not to answer the question?

Proportionally the United States did more to end the Holocaust than they did to end the massacre of the Congolese... which involved millions more lives.  In 2015 proportionally the United States gives way more foreign aid to Israel than Congo.  That is a fact.  How that entitles President Obama to being disrespected in his house on national TV by the Prime Minster of Israel I still don't understand.  The United States owes Israel nothing.  The Israelis should be grateful for $3 billion/yr and the perpetual vote on the security council.
That's because we were never at war with Congo.  Otherwise we never would have lifted a finger.

I think you mean at war with Belgium.

And it is irrelevant.  What actually happened was we gave proportionally more help to the Jews then and for DECADES after way more help to Israel.  This is not something that is in dispute.  We haven't been at war with Germany for over half a century and yet we are still giving Israel $2.9 billion/yr.

Guys I'm just astonished by this conversation because it is such a disproportionately large amount over half a century.  No one is advocating attacking Israel or throwing Israel to the wolves.  The only conversation I'm having is why not bring it in line with international norms?  Does that really make one an antisemite?

In another thread I actually suggested cutting off aid to Egypt.  Interestingly no one called me anti Muslim or anti Arab.  What are we to gather from that?
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MalaspinaGold
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« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2015, 03:34:16 PM »

What I'm arguing against is Schadenfreude's pathetic revisionism that America did something other than the absolute minimum to win the war and therefore the Jews should feel grateful. It's condescending and patronizing in the absolute worst sort of way. It's the intellectual equivalent of arguing Stalin was good for the Jews because he liberated Auschwitz.

Is it a language problem?  Do you not understand the word "proportional"?  Or is this just an attempt not to answer the question?

Proportionally the United States did more to end the Holocaust than they did to end the massacre of the Congolese... which involved millions more lives.  In 2015 proportionally the United States gives way more foreign aid to Israel than Congo.  That is a fact.  How that entitles President Obama to being disrespected in his house on national TV by the Prime Minster of Israel I still don't understand.  The United States owes Israel nothing.  The Israelis should be grateful for $3 billion/yr and the perpetual vote on the security council.
That's because we were never at war with Congo.  Otherwise we never would have lifted a finger.

I think you mean at war with Belgium.

And it is irrelevant.  What actually happened was we gave proportionally more help to the Jews then and for DECADES after way more help to Israel.  This is not something that is in dispute.  We haven't been at war with Germany for over half a century and yet we are still giving Israel $2.9 billion/yr.

Guys I'm just astonished by this conversation because it is such a disproportionately large amount over half a century.  No one is advocating attacking Israel or throwing Israel to the wolves.  The only conversation I'm having is why not bring it in line with international norms?  Does that really make one an antisemite?

In another thread I actually suggested cutting off aid to Egypt.  Interestingly no one called me anti Muslim or anti Arab.  What are we to gather from that?
Again, as I noted before, US aid to Israel is largely a relic of the Cold War- when Israel and the Arab countries oriented to different blocs. Even that didn't really start until (IIRC) the 6-day war.
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Schadenfreude
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« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2015, 05:13:51 PM »

Again, as I noted before, US aid to Israel is largely a relic of the Cold War- when Israel and the Arab countries oriented to different blocs. Even that didn't really start until (IIRC) the 6-day war.

Cold war has been over for decades and we are still giving Israel more money than any other country we currently aren't conducting a war in.

I think given the fact I advocate for a very liberal immigration policy for Jews and I support spending billions a year to help Jews settle in my country I am not an antisemite.  I actively encourage Jews to move in next to me and I would gladly pay taxes to see that happen.

I also don't have a problem with Israel other than us subsidizing them and giving them our vote on the security council.  I never agreed with the creation of Israel but now that it exists I would defend perhaps the 1947 borders.  I would definitely defend some kind of Jewish homeland... with my own life if it came to it.  And not because Jews deserve it or because I owe it to them, but because of the generosity and kindness Jews have shown to me.

I just think the whole of the middle east needs to chill out.  There are just too many fake religious and historical fights.  If we can defuse the situation by relocating a lot of Jews to the United States at our expense I think that is what we should do.  This BS about 2,000 year old do overs needs to stop.  If we were to redraw maps based upon what was going on 2,000 years ago this planet would be a chaotic mess... by which I mean more of a chaotic mess than it currently is.
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Chunk Yogurt for President!
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Junior Chimp
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« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2015, 06:18:22 PM »

Obama probably got hard when he read this. He'll be happy to do absolutely nothing if Iran attacks Israel while he's still president.

I doubt it'll get to that point. Israel is going to attack first to stop them, and then we'll find out if Obama did in fact promise Iran military support to defend its nuclear program.

You've said this before and I think that's a conspiracy theory.  Even if Obama wanted to attack Israel, don't you think the massive public backlash would be enough to convince him not to?
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DavidB.
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« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2015, 06:45:18 PM »
« Edited: October 13, 2015, 06:47:48 PM by Samurai Jew »

In my opinion, the world shouldn't owe Israel anything, and Israel shouldn't owe the world anything. It works out best for both sides that way.
Exactly. I'll go a step further by saying that the world should leave Israel the f**k alone and accept we're not a colony anymore. We'll deal with the mess. I'm entirely fine with not getting a single dime from abroad as long as the world doesn't screw us up by interventions, illegitimate UN resolutions (an organization that shouldn't exist anyway), boycotts, funding our enemies in order to destroy us (this also applies to the Netherlands, my own country, which is a total disgrace), and the like.
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Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas
Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2015, 07:23:42 PM »

Obama probably got hard when he read this. He'll be happy to do absolutely nothing if Iran attacks Israel while he's still president.

I doubt it'll get to that point. Israel is going to attack first to stop them, and then we'll find out if Obama did in fact promise Iran military support to defend its nuclear program.

You've said this before and I think that's a conspiracy theory.  Even if Obama wanted to attack Israel, don't you think the massive public backlash would be enough to convince him not to?

I think you're right on that point, but Obama's probably been the President motivated the least by public approval that I can remember. In fact, the further he gets from having to worry about it, the more belligerent he gets.

I'm not guaranteeing anything will happen, nor do I think it's even a probability, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Obama would do something that could escalate things severely between the two countries. These decisions are made on the spur of the moment, not after public debate. Where it goes from there would depend on whether cooler heads are able to rise to the top quickly in both countries.
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Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas
Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2015, 07:24:48 PM »

In my opinion, the world shouldn't owe Israel anything, and Israel shouldn't owe the world anything. It works out best for both sides that way.
Exactly. I'll go a step further by saying that the world should leave Israel the f**k alone and accept we're not a colony anymore. We'll deal with the mess. I'm entirely fine with not getting a single dime from abroad as long as the world doesn't screw us up by interventions, illegitimate UN resolutions (an organization that shouldn't exist anyway), boycotts, funding our enemies in order to destroy us (this also applies to the Netherlands, my own country, which is a total disgrace), and the like.

Agreed. I would be much, much more comfortable with US money to Israel being solely in the form of trade and technology sales, as opposed to "foreign aid". It's a cudgel that Israel-haters use to bludgeon us with, as if we owe our existence to them.
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IronFist
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« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2015, 07:34:58 PM »

Well it sounds like a bad news for Israel.
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