If you saw someone wearing a shirt that said "Saints Never Surrender"....

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Something I'm curious about before I buy any shirts of this band.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

I would assume they were New Orleans football fans, honestly.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I would assume they were New Orleans football fans, honestly.

Yes, but what if they looked like a hipster Christian and not a sports fan?

And as for the poll...no, but maybe in your twisted sphere saints are looked at as some almost pagan thing. I know one Protestant friend who made a remark like that once where she joked she would pray to saints in spite of not being Catholic. Seems odd. I don't typically associate it with religion. Just hyperbolic language for a good person.

[Simfan34]

I would assume it had something to do with football.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

For the record the band is not Catholic. In fact per some blog stuff the vocalist was affiliated with a church that even calls itself a "progressive evangelical" one on their website. And amusingly they are from Indiana.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Fans of the Northampton rugby union club, I would presume.

[Crumpets]

I would assume they were New Orleans football fans, honestly.

I would assume it had something to do with football.

This.

[Goldwater]

Why does it matter? Anyway, no, I probably wouldn't think much of it.

[Figueira]

I wouldn't really care.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Why are you so against Catholics? Many of your ancestors were likely Catholics. Even the WASPs weren't this obsessed with hating them.

Not "likely", at least 25% were. That I have some Catholic ancestry is something I've never hid, in fact I've emphasized it, why would I care what my ancestors were? I have Catholic, mainline and evangelical  ancestry. How can I identify with any of those "culturally" being that mixed?

In this case I wouldn't want to be mistaken for something non-liberal.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Why are you so against Catholics? Many of your ancestors were likely Catholics. Even the WASPs weren't this obsessed with hating them.

Not "likely", at least 25% were. That I have some Catholic ancestry is something I've never hid, in fact I've emphasized it, why would I care what my ancestors were? I have Catholic, mainline and evangelical  ancestry. How can I identify with any of those "culturally" being that mixed?

In this case I wouldn't want to be mistaken for something non-liberal.

Hah! American Catholics are very liberal! You should see my grandparents!
Heck, even by you, it was the east Iowa Catholics that delivered the state for our heroic President.

But save your breath..women priests...yada yada...gay marriage...yada yada...Ingress in church...yada yada yada

[/]

Probably, but not necessarily.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Why are you so against Catholics? Many of your ancestors were likely Catholics. Even the WASPs weren't this obsessed with hating them.

Not "likely", at least 25% were. That I have some Catholic ancestry is something I've never hid, in fact I've emphasized it, why would I care what my ancestors were? I have Catholic, mainline and evangelical  ancestry. How can I identify with any of those "culturally" being that mixed?

In this case I wouldn't want to be mistaken for something non-liberal.

Hah! American Catholics are very liberal! You should see my grandparents!
Heck, even by you, it was the east Iowa Catholics that delivered the state for our heroic President.

But save your breath..women priests...yada yada...gay marriage...yada yada...Ingress in church...yada yada yada

See you can flippantly mock those things but the fact is they are very important to me. And far more important to me than "OMG CULTURE" or ethnic heritage. That doesn't matter in 2015.

I'll say more when I'm off mobile.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Why are you so against Catholics? Many of your ancestors were likely Catholics. Even the WASPs weren't this obsessed with hating them.

Not "likely", at least 25% were. That I have some Catholic ancestry is something I've never hid, in fact I've emphasized it, why would I care what my ancestors were? I have Catholic, mainline and evangelical  ancestry. How can I identify with any of those "culturally" being that mixed?

In this case I wouldn't want to be mistaken for something non-liberal.

Hah! American Catholics are very liberal! You should see my grandparents!
Heck, even by you, it was the east Iowa Catholics that delivered the state for our heroic President.

But save your breath..women priests...yada yada...gay marriage...yada yada...Ingress in church...yada yada yada

See you can flippantly mock those things but the fact is they are very important to me. And far more important to me than "OMG CULTURE" or ethnic heritage. That doesn't matter in 2015.

I'll say more when I'm off mobile.

Alright, here's my elaboration.

The Catholic Church is obviously not liberal. So why would or should someone liberal stay in it? The only response I've heard is just some rambling about "culture and tradition".

Well I can't comprehend this. Seriously I just can't. It's like trying to get your calculator to divide by zero. It's also somewhat contradictory, since value of tradition is a cornerstone of conservatism, why would someone with liberal politics remain attached to conservative traditions (this includes Columbus Day by the way) because of conservative reasoning? After all maybe the reason I can't comprehend it is because I am so liberal.

But there's something about me that's a bit deeper in regards to that. And that's my scene, yep my music. Which so many mock and flippantly disregard. Here's what I think those people don't understand: This is not just about music. For example, see the description of the fest here. That's just one example. Many people in the scene have done crazy things and sacrificed big time for it, and it's all for the community we share. There's countless band speeches and zine articles writing about why go on tour. It's very emotionally draining, it doesn't make the bands tons of money, and if they just wanted to have fun playing music they could easily do so at home without having to sleep on the floors and couches of people they just met in person that day. It's a community that requires a very high level of commitment unlike Taylor Swift fans. I have many stories of things I've gone to some big lengths for for the scene, including going to Dude Fest, wasn't easy or cheap! This is a popular scene tattoo (yes it's a lyric):



So here's the thing: I know that people in the scene will be accepting, and not full of bigotry or reactionary politics. I can't say the same for someone who just happens to share the same ethnic background as me. Who do I have more in common with, an Italian-American who goes to hardcore shows in NYC, or some Swedish-German in the Twin Cities suburbs who has never been to a show?

So imagine I were Italian-American from a Catholic family. What reason would I have to care about that? Why would I march in a Columbus Day parade or go to a Catholic mass on Christmas/Easter (assuming I was only that type of Christian) instead of a progressive church that might share my values? Why would I care more about that instead of my progressive values and my community in the scene? The people I actually associate with, do things with, and have sacrificed for, and had some of them do so for me. That binds people FAR more than just having happened to have ancestors from the same country.

And your flippant dismissal actually shows why I adhere to SJW values. Because those things matter to me because they matter a lot to other people. What about a woman born into Catholicism who wants to be a priest/pastor but can't without leaving the church? What about people who are gay born into it? To them I say: Leave. As many do. After all if your culture and heritage doesn't match your values, then it DESERVES to be thrown away.

And the scene culture IS the most respectful and positive one I've ever encountered. For example note this record insert:


So for that, I will stand for something. I will not stand simply for sharing a similar genetic strain to someone else.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Why are you so against Catholics? Many of your ancestors were likely Catholics. Even the WASPs weren't this obsessed with hating them.

Not "likely", at least 25% were. That I have some Catholic ancestry is something I've never hid, in fact I've emphasized it, why would I care what my ancestors were? I have Catholic, mainline and evangelical  ancestry. How can I identify with any of those "culturally" being that mixed?

In this case I wouldn't want to be mistaken for something non-liberal.

Congratulations, then you are like most Americans. So I don't see why this became  crusade for you is all I'm asking. I think it's great you switched religions, that's what America is about. But why bait Catholics to respond?

I already kind of gave my manifesto, so I'll just do a long story short here: there were some people (olds, none of whom are alive today) on my mother's side of the family who apparently gave her lots of heartache about marrying someone non-Catholic in a non-Catholic church. This understandably soured my parents to the church, and in general it's not something regarded as very positive in my family. Funnily enough most people from it abandoned it, of my mother's side of the family which had six kids, only two are still Catholic.

So you can see why I don't approve too much of people who are that defensive of culture. I've never been to a Catholic wedding as an adult, but if anyone in my family was getting married in a Catholic church, yes I would go, and I wouldn't even give them grief about it either. That's despicable. And that's what this valuing of "culture" and your ethnic heritage leads to, and it should all be thrown away. It's f[inks]ing vile.

[bagelman]

If you're going to get this worked over it than don't wear it. It's just a stupid shirt!! It's not worthy of this much public deliberation! 

I should mention that I would indeed think you were Catholic with such a shirt without the New Orleans logo or other context.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

If you're going to get this worked over it than don't wear it. It's just a stupid shirt!! It's not worthy of this much public deliberation!  

I should mention that I would indeed think you were Catholic with such a shirt without the New Orleans logo or other context.

If we are not going to publicly discuss band shirts and religious tradition OR some obese Baptist in Oklahoma who is on Work Night 28, why are we even going to have a forum anymore?

[Joe Republic]

Sounds like the slogan would be embroidered with rhinestones, and giant eagle wings spread across the back of the shoulders.  And the guy wearing it has frosted tips.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

If you're going to get this worked over it than don't wear it. It's just a stupid shirt!! It's not worthy of this much public deliberation!  

But I really like the band.

Also despite all the New Orleans references what's funny is this is what one of the shirts looks like:

[Joe Republic]

So?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Hoo, boy, this thread...

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

BRTD, it's possible to be liberal in some ways but conservative in others, or to be left-wing but not really liberal in one's cultural attitudes, or to be a woman or gay but to prioritize other identities above those.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, it's possible to be liberal in some ways but conservative in others, or to be left-wing but not really liberal in one's cultural attitudes, or to be a woman or gay but to prioritize other identities above those.

It should not surprise you though that that is basically never the case with people in a subculture based heavily on SJW-ish politics. Which for better or worse is the prism from which I basically view the entire world.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

BRTD, it's possible to be liberal in some ways but conservative in others, or to be left-wing but not really liberal in one's cultural attitudes, or to be a woman or gay but to prioritize other identities above those.

It should not surprise you though that that is basically never the case with people in a subculture based heavily on SJW-ish politics.

Of course it doesn't surprise me.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The prism from which I basically view the entire world is a combination of liturgical Christianity, academic religious studies, and the kind of Italian-American family culture that might not want to have a trans cousin in the mix if it can avoid it but would bash heads in if anybody external to the family talked smack about her, but I can understand and (if I try hard to be compassionate) accept your way too. Can you understand and (if you try hard to be compassionate) accept my way?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, it's possible to be liberal in some ways but conservative in others, or to be left-wing but not really liberal in one's cultural attitudes, or to be a woman or gay but to prioritize other identities above those.

It should not surprise you though that that is basically never the case with people in a subculture based heavily on SJW-ish politics.

Of course it doesn't surprise me.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The prism from which I basically view the entire world is a combination of liturgical Christianity, academic religious studies, and the kind of Italian-American family culture that might not want to have a trans cousin in the mix if it can avoid it but would bash heads in if anybody external to the family talked smack about her, but I can understand and (if I try hard to be compassionate) accept your way too. Can you understand and (if you try hard to be compassionate) accept my way?

I suppose but I think something that everyone needs to understand is that I have literally never met anyone like this in my life.

Perspective: There are probably more blacks than Italians in North Dakota, and probably more African immigrants and descendants of them (as opposed to African-American) blacks than Italians in Minnesota.