Should the Treaty of Sevres be reimposed?

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

I like the idea of a Greek Constantinople.

[YL]

I like the idea of a Greek Constantinople.

In spite of the map, I don't think even the Treaty of Sévres actually tried that.  I think there are a few people who support the idea today, but they're generally members of Golden Dawn.

[Türkisblau]

Armenia regaining those lands would be like Germany regaining Kaliningrad.

Bad comparison. Turkey was an aggressor, which got rewarded for its agression and genocide. Germany was an aggressor, which got punished for its aggression (and indirectly its genocide).

Anyway, the point is that it would basically entail massive ethnic cleansing for Armenia to regain those territories.

It's almost impossible not to make an Israel comparison here...

[ingemann]

Armenia regaining those lands would be like Germany regaining Kaliningrad.

Bad comparison. Turkey was an aggressor, which got rewarded for its agression and genocide. Germany was an aggressor, which got punished for its aggression (and indirectly its genocide).

Anyway, the point is that it would basically entail massive ethnic cleansing for Armenia to regain those territories.

It's almost impossible not to make an Israel comparison here...

You needed to ethnic cleanse a few hundred thousand to create Israel, and it was in the middle of a war and it already were 50% Jewish. Here you need to ethnic cleanse 5-10 million to create Wilsonian Armenia, and while a small Armenian population may hide in the region (as Muslims), they at best make up a 100-200 000 people. Also I don't see the Armenian diaspora return to this area, so you simply give a large empty area to a small state with 3 million people and a low birth rate.

[Simfan34]

This does not really pertain to Turkey, but I really do think Gully is right here (and I have for some time):

At this point I wonder if 'permanently occupy the region' is the only 'solution' here.

I recall a thread where someone (I think it was also Gully) posted an ethnic map of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and asked how one would have best "chopped it up"-- and this map didn't even try to deal with Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats, lumping them together. The region-- if not all of West Asia, then at least the Levant (but probably the whole thing, given the war in Yemen for starters)-- can hardly be divided in a manner that will prove satisfactory, especially considering the fluid salience of group distinctions.

Take Yemen; not very long ago its Shias and Sunnis, whose doctrinal differences were less pronounced than was the case elsewhere, were able to live alongside each other in such concord that they even worshipped at each others' mosques. Now they're fighting a full-scale civil war. At the same time, for all the talk against it, events have done little to indicate that dichotomy of "Islamists or autocrats" is inaccurate-- just look at the Egyptian election in 2012 when those were literally the two choices. There has been virtually nothing (aside from Tunisia, if that) to suggest that people in the region will somehow manage to embrace democracy and get along with one another.

There seems to be two options-- either accept "irrational" borders and force people within them to "get along", or return to the multinational empires of old to do the same. Both of which would require direct foreign long-term intervention. Nothing else seems to work.

[mencken]

Bump, in light of recent events.

[ag]

Bump, in light of recent events.

I think, most definitely, Turkey should be allowed to expand

[The Free North]

Strongly agree

1453 worst year ever.

[Sol]

Strongly agree

1453 worst year ever.

Why on earth should Istanbul be ceded to Greece? That ship has clearly sailed...

[The Free North]

Strongly agree

1453 worst year ever.

Why on earth should Istanbul be ceded to Greece? That ship has clearly sailed...

Imagined geographies and Turkish insolence.

[ag]

Strongly agree

1453 worst year ever.

Why on earth should Istanbul be ceded to Greece? That ship has clearly sailed...

Imagined geographies and Turkish insolence.

Since when is shooting a RUSSSIAN plane is considered insolence by anybody but the Russians?

[mencken]

Strongly agree

1453 worst year ever.

Why on earth should Istanbul be ceded to Greece? That ship has clearly sailed...

Imagined geographies and Turkish insolence.

Since when is shooting a RUSSSIAN plane is considered insolence by anybody but the Russians?

So sovereignty does not count when Russia is the victim? Sounds awfully familiar...

[ag]

Strongly agree

1453 worst year ever.

Why on earth should Istanbul be ceded to Greece? That ship has clearly sailed...

Imagined geographies and Turkish insolence.

Since when is shooting a RUSSSIAN plane is considered insolence by anybody but the Russians?

So sovereignty does not count when Russia is the victim? Sounds awfully familiar...

Russia violated Turkish sovereignty, and that makes it a victim? Or is Russia sovereign in Turkey? I do not get it.

[mencken]

Strongly agree

1453 worst year ever.

Why on earth should Istanbul be ceded to Greece? That ship has clearly sailed...

Imagined geographies and Turkish insolence.

Since when is shooting a RUSSSIAN plane is considered insolence by anybody but the Russians?

So sovereignty does not count when Russia is the victim? Sounds awfully familiar...

Russia violated Turkish sovereignty, and that makes it a victim? Or is Russia sovereign in Turkey? I do not get it.

Only in the mind of a neo-Ottoman thug like Erdogan do Russian planes flying over Syria with Syria's permission constitute a violation of Turkish sovereignty.

[ag]

Strongly agree

1453 worst year ever.

Why on earth should Istanbul be ceded to Greece? That ship has clearly sailed...

Imagined geographies and Turkish insolence.

Since when is shooting a RUSSSIAN plane is considered insolence by anybody but the Russians?

So sovereignty does not count when Russia is the victim? Sounds awfully familiar...

Russia violated Turkish sovereignty, and that makes it a victim? Or is Russia sovereign in Turkey? I do not get it.

Only in the mind of a neo-Ottoman thug like Erdogan do Russian planes flying over Syria with Syria's permission constitute a violation of Turkish sovereignty.

Even if one forgets that they, actually were flying (repeatedly) over Turkey, only in a mind of a (pro-)Russian imperialist  thug would shooting a Russian warplane over Syria constitute a violation of Russian sovereignty. And if you care about Syrian sovereignty, why aren't you upset about, say,the US or France bombing there: without any permission from, say, Mr. Assad (I guess, he is "Syria" for you)?  Russians are just another party in a Syrian civil war, and shooting their plane is no different from bombing any other target there.

That is, again, even if you choose to believe the Russians that they did not fly over Turkey: though, in that case, which of the three mutually exclusive versions of the flight path that the Russians produced in three days do you choose to believe?

[ag]

So, hours after the Russians slaughter dozens of Syrians in Idlib, I do not see any calls for restoring the Russian borders circa 1380. Where is the outrage?  Or are they sovereign in doing this?

[MaxQue]

So, hours after the Russians slaughter dozens of Syrians in Idlib, I do not see any calls for restoring the Russian borders circa 1380. Where is the outrage?  Or are they sovereign in doing this?

Erdogan doesn't feel to nee to pay people to sprout his nonsense, unlike Putin.

[ag]

So, hours after the Russians slaughter dozens of Syrians in Idlib, I do not see any calls for restoring the Russian borders circa 1380. Where is the outrage?  Or are they sovereign in doing this?

Erdogan doesn't feel to nee to pay people to sprout his nonsense, unlike Putin.

It seems, though, around here Putin has got some free support as well Imagine: do the propaganda for the KGB, and not even getting paid! How pathetic

[The Free North]