Facts About Sweden

[Bono]

Facts about Sweden
1. No new net jobs have been produced in the Swedish private sector since 1950.

2. "None of top 50 companies on the Stockholm stock exchange has been started since 1970."

3. "...well over 1 million people out of a work force of around four million did not work in 2003 but lived on various kinds of public welfare programs, such as, pre-pension schemes, unemployment benefits, sick-leave programs, etc."

4. "Sweden has dropped from fourth to 14th place in 2002 among the OECD countries (i.e., affluent industrialized countries) in terms of GDP per capita since 1970."

Here is a more complete summary. Here is the paper itself. Here is Nils Karlson, the author of the relevant essay. Here is some debate on whether Sweden is richer than Mississippi and Alabama. Admittedly Sweden has a higher quality of public goods and offers more leisure time.

My take: I'm willing to take the Swedish model seriously.People say Stocholm is lovely. That being said, how attractive will this model remain when it offers only half of the per capita income of the United States?

This is a real question, not a rhetorical one. On one hand, freer societies will reap especially high benefits in an era of rapid technological change. On the other hand, the innovations of the United States, and other countries, indirectly subsidize Swedish government spending.

[dazzleman]

I think that what you describe sums up the malady of socialism very well.

There's no reason to exert yourself when you will live just as well as if you don't.

A wealthy society can get away with this type of thing for a while, but not forever.  Eventually, irreversible economic decline sets in when the number of people who are net takers keeps growing in relation to those who are paying taxes.

I have also read that most births in Sweden now are illegitimate.  That will also have an impact on the economic side, for a number of reasons.

Those who encourage this type of economic and social liberalism have no idea of the road to hell that they are paving.

[opebo]

That being said, how attractive will this model remain when it offers only half of the per capita income of the United States?

Very attractive.  Even if the per capita income were higher in the US, it is so unevenly distributed that the vast majority of people would be better of being Swedes.
Sweden's PPI  - $28,400    http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sw.html
US  PPI           - $40,100 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

Certainly the US has a larger PPI, but Sweden's is obviously more than the half your source claims, even by the spurious U.S.-favoring 'PPI'.   And again, GDP is much more unequally distributed in the US, and therefore irrelevant to the majority of the population.  These figures are from the CIA World Factbook, and I strongly dislike the Purchasing Power Index figure, as it does not reflect currency strength.  Alas this biased number is pervasive, and I could not find any charts of real GDP per capita online.  Sweden's real GDP would be, I am sure, much closer to that of the US (with its collapsing dollar), without all the purchasing power index trickery.

[Platypus]

Australia's a social democracy and we're doing pretty well, so I don't think the swedish situation exemplifies social democracy. i think their problem is that it's basically been a one party state for generations. You need a different party to shake things up sometimes, to keep everything healthy.

[opebo]

Those who encourage this type of economic and social liberalism have no idea of the road to hell that they are paving.

Good lord man, you are waxing hyperbolic!  Even if Bono's dubious claims are true (which they are not - see my post above), the fictional Sweden his right wing source describes is still very far from 'hell'!  In fact I don't see how anyone could dispute that it is preferable to the US for most of the working class.

[Bono]

Those who encourage this type of economic and social liberalism have no idea of the road to hell that they are paving.

Good lord man, you are waxing hyperbolic!  Even if Bono's dubious claims are true (which they are not - see my post above), the fictional Sweden his right wing source describes is still very far from 'hell'!  In fact I don't see how anyone could dispute that it is preferable to the US for most of the working class.

Very clever, becuasse I said "Will be", not is.
Distorting words and attacking sources are the arguments of the truly desperate.

[opebo]

Those who encourage this type of economic and social liberalism have no idea of the road to hell that they are paving.

Good lord man, you are waxing hyperbolic!  Even if Bono's dubious claims are true (which they are not - see my post above), the fictional Sweden his right wing source describes is still very far from 'hell'!  In fact I don't see how anyone could dispute that it is preferable to the US for most of the working class.

Very clever, becuasse I said "Will be", not is.
Distorting words and attacking sources are the arguments of the truly desperate.

What on earth does my post have to do with you?  I was refering to dazzleman's post quoted above, not yours. 

I only said I doubted your claims.  You never used the world 'hell' - that was dazzleman.  If you would like to see my critique of your original posting, look at my response just below it.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yay another thread that allows the same group of people to have another hackneyed debate about the same f***king thing (which also allows them to claim that country x is inferior).

None of you are even trying to be objective, none of you are even bothering to compare like with like, all of you are cherry picking whatever statistics prop up you're arguements, most of you then proceed to take that out of context and spin it around for all it's worth... etc. etc. etc.

[opebo]

Yay another thread that allows the same group of people to have another hackneyed debate about the same f***king thing (which also allows them to claim that country x is inferior).

None of you are even trying to be objective, none of you are even bothering to compare like with like, all of you are cherry picking whatever statistics prop up you're arguements, most of you then proceed to take that out of context and spin it around for all it's worth... etc. etc. etc.

The essential difference is perspective.  Bono and company evaluate an economy based on its overall performance and either disregard or applaud that the benefits that flow to the owning class.  I'm just making the point that their priorities have little to do with the interests of the majority of the population.  Any reasonable person can see that the bottom 80% of society will be far better off in Sweden.

[Bono]

Yay another thread that allows the same group of people to have another hackneyed debate about the same f***king thing (which also allows them to claim that country x is inferior).

None of you are even trying to be objective, none of you are even bothering to compare like with like, all of you are cherry picking whatever statistics prop up you're arguements, most of you then proceed to take that out of context and spin it around for all it's worth... etc. etc. etc.

The essential difference is perspective.  Bono and company evaluate an economy based on its overall performance and either disregard or applaud that the benefits that flow to the owning class.  I'm just making the point that their priorities have little to do with the interests of the majority of the population.  Any reasonable person can see that the bottom 80% of society will be far better off in Sweden.

You are the living proff Hans-Herman Hoppe is right.
People who live shallow lifestyles can't think long term.

[Julien]

A good example of socialism gone mad

[opebo]

Yay another thread that allows the same group of people to have another hackneyed debate about the same f***king thing (which also allows them to claim that country x is inferior).

None of you are even trying to be objective, none of you are even bothering to compare like with like, all of you are cherry picking whatever statistics prop up you're arguements, most of you then proceed to take that out of context and spin it around for all it's worth... etc. etc. etc.

The essential difference is perspective.  Bono and company evaluate an economy based on its overall performance and either disregard or applaud that the benefits that flow to the owning class.  I'm just making the point that their priorities have little to do with the interests of the majority of the population.  Any reasonable person can see that the bottom 80% of society will be far better off in Sweden.

You are the living proff Hans-Herman Hoppe is right.
People who live shallow lifestyles can't think long term.

I have no idea why you would think my lifestyle 'shallow', or exactly what you mean by that.  Certainly an individual human life is too brief for 'long term' thinking to actually be reasonable (mortality and all that).  Your Hoppe sounds like a stupid, moralizing prig.

However, to examine these two societal types over the longer term, we still come up against the same problem.  The laissez-faire society, while it may continue to grow and produce over the 'long term', will always give next to nothing to the lower class.  And even if the mildly redistributionist Swedish style economy falters, it is unlikely to ever actually be as bad for the working class as the laissez-faire one, even if it grows slowly or not at all.

Try for just one moment to put yourself in someone elses situation, and you will see that different types of economies work well for different classes of people.  There is no one size fits all.  Sweden is a good compromise between capitalism and socialism (akin to American liberalism), and a great model for the future of the U.S.

[Tory]

A good example of socialism gone mad

This coming from a Frenchman!

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

A good example of socialism gone mad

This coming from a Frenchman!

First hand experience is usually a better teacher than abstract theory.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

See what I mean? Why bother having this debate? You all know what you think, and you're not going to convince anyone due to the extreme positions you're all taking up. Let's just all agree on this:

1. Sweden is not perfect.
2. Sweden is not a collapsing hellhole either.

[opebo]

See what I mean? Why bother having this debate? You all know what you think, and you're not going to convince anyone due to the extreme positions you're all taking up. Let's just all agree on this:

1. Sweden is not perfect.
2. Sweden is not a collapsing hellhole either.

Agreed.  And:

3.  It is better to be a poor in Sweden than in the U.S.
4.  It is better to be a rich in the US than in Sweden.

[David S]

Bono this is a good thread. I wish you would have made it a poll; Should the US model its economy after Sweden?

Opebos answer I believe is yes.
My answer is somewhere between no and hell no.

[David S]

See what I mean? Why bother having this debate? You all know what you think, and you're not going to convince anyone due to the extreme positions you're all taking up. Let's just all agree on this:

1. Sweden is not perfect.
2. Sweden is not a collapsing hellhole either.

Agreed.  And:

3.  It is better to be a poor in Sweden than in the U.S.
4.  It is better to be a rich in the US than in Sweden.

Another way of looking at it:
Its better to be a deadbeat in Sweden
Its better to be a productive person in the US.

[opebo]

See what I mean? Why bother having this debate? You all know what you think, and you're not going to convince anyone due to the extreme positions you're all taking up. Let's just all agree on this:

1. Sweden is not perfect.
2. Sweden is not a collapsing hellhole either.

Agreed.  And:

3.  It is better to be a poor in Sweden than in the U.S.
4.  It is better to be a rich in the US than in Sweden.

Another way of looking at it:
Its better to be a deadbeat in Sweden
Its better to be a productive person in the US.

What do the terms 'deadbeat' and 'productive person' have to do with the working and owning classes respectively?

[Lunar]

My sister is an exchange student in Sweden.  Living expenses are higher in Sweden (look at the cost of Vodka - it's like $40 a bottle), and she gets paid about $3 an hour to work in a university restaurant.

[went that way]

1. Sweden is not Socialist

opebo what he means by "productive citizen" is anyone who isn't in a union and practices cirect action.
Such as a member of these guys
The Wobblies

[David S]

^^^^^ Oh boy another communist. Where do you guys keep coming from? Do they teach this stuff in college or do you just naturally gravitate to it?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

^^^^^ Oh boy another communist. Where do you guys keep coming from? Do they teach this stuff in college or do you just naturally gravitate to it?

both

[??????????]

^^^^^ Oh boy another communist. Where do you guys keep coming from? Do they teach this stuff in college or do you just naturally gravitate to it?

I think both... it's a popular thing around colleges here.

Yeah, we need another McCarthy. I miss the halls of Congress being occupied by great men such as he was.

[A18]

Did McCarthy even catch a single communist? Nixon was much better at that sort of thing.