transgender individuals in the girls HS locker room?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

yeah thanks for the name btw. I think it suits me

[Penelope]

This thread makes me sick.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

as crabcake said - forcing a trans girl to use the boys' locker room (or vice versa) is pretty much the definition of "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment" (udhr art. 5)

That view will never be mainstream in the United States.  Plenty of transexuals have for decades happily lived their lives according to their unaltered external physical appearance.

that's a big assumption to make, isn't it?

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it can and it does

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mmh. transgender people, as we all know, literally don't exist outside of "developed" countries.
[/quote]

Why are you being so hyperbolic?  Is it because you know they are right?[/quote]
i haven't seen this kataak person be right about literally anything so far tbh, but then i haven't seen a lot of her posts in general

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the general issue of forcing trans youth to conform to their birth-designated gender is one of the biggest, if not the biggest problems facing trans people everywhere. it can take a lot of forms.

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are…
are you implying that lgbt+ people in the "third world" don't care about discrimination?
(i mean, not that the rest of this mangled heap of nonsense is much better, but…)

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irony!

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

yeah thanks for the name btw. I think it suits me

You're welcome : )

I haven't seen this kataak person be right about literally anything so far to be honest, but then I haven't seen a lot of her posts in general.

I will not say that I am always right, but in that case I am. Of course you can do not agree if you wish.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

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the general issue of forcing trans youth to conform to their birth-designated gender is one of the biggest, if not the biggest problems facing trans people everywhere. it can take a lot of forms.

Please stop.  Arguing with strawmen only makes you look childish.  We are ONLY talking about the very narrow situation of taking your clothes off and exposing your genitals to other human beings.  Many if not most third world high schools don't have locker rooms let alone communal showers so this is a first world problem.

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are…
are you implying that lgbt+ people in the "third world" don't care about discrimination?
(i mean, not that the rest of this mangled heap of nonsense is much better, but…)

I'm not implying anything.  I am saying, to literate people who can read, that regardless of sexual orientation exploring and expressing your sexuality is not a priority in many third world high schools and is actually actively discouraged.  In Africa there is the fear of HIV/AIDs, in all third world countries there is the fear of girls getting pregnant, in many first world countries there are culturally conservative pressures that demand girls be asexaul, etc.  This may come as a shock to you but there are other people other that transexuals on the planet and for most of them they live far more sexually restrictive lives than transexuals in first world countries.  Again, the narrow issue being discussed in this thread is a first world problem despite all the strawmen you keep throwing out.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

It's a great argument isn't it? You care about Issue A. You heartless monster!? Do you know how many sick kids in Africa who are hungry right now!!!

Unfortunately, this point actually negates essentially every political issue ever discussed in the western world. What, you actually care about healthcare reform/election law/the tax code? DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY KIDS STARVE IN AFRICA, YOU INSENSITIVE PRICK

I presume also you walk up to bereaved widows and tell them to get a grip, because some people in Nepal lost their entire families in the earthquake; and if a man loses his house in a fire you congratulate him because he wasn't rounded up in the Holocaust and you are physically angered every time somebody complains about a minor ailment because they aren't being eaten by a mountain lion?

[Taco Truck 🚚]

It's a great argument isn't it? You care about Issue A. You heartless monster!? Do you know how many sick kids in Africa who are hungry right now!!!

Unfortunately, this point actually negates essentially every political issue ever discussed in the western world. What, you actually care about healthcare reform/election law/the tax code? DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY KIDS STARVE IN AFRICA, YOU INSENSITIVE PRICK

I presume also you walk up to bereaved widows and tell them to get a grip, because some people in Nepal lost their entire families in the earthquake; and if a man loses his house in a fire you congratulate him because he wasn't rounded up in the Holocaust and you are physically angered every time somebody complains about a minor ailment because they aren't being eaten by a mountain lion?

OMG!  Can people on this forum not read?  You are right.  I wouldn't discuss this issue... if we were in AFRICA!  I am not.  I assume you aren't either.  You ignore all my posts discussing the issue because of one post saying people in Africa don't discuss the issue.  Sorry for being factual.  Should I lie the next time?

Look guys regardless of what country you are in no one is going to rip out a perfectly good communal shower to install a bunch of private stalls on the off chance there may be a transexual student who comes through the school one day and happens to want to shower with the girls.  Maybe a handful of rich school districts on the left coast might but that will be notable because it is the exception not the rule.  Argue on the internet all you want but unless you are donating millions to school district budgets it ain't gonna happen.  And no it will never be wide spread practice in the United States to let anything with a penis jump in the shower with 14 year old girls on government property.  Get a grip.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

What's the point? I've made my points on this thread before, and you've merely vomited the same inane nonsense. Compulsory group showers are weird and creepy relics that should be phased out, like how removing asbestos is expensive but has to be done. If schools don't have the resources to do that that's a matter of funding.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

What's the point? I've made my points on this thread before, and you've merely vomited the same inane nonsense.

That's one way to make friends and win respect.

Compulsory group showers are weird and creepy relics that should be phased out, like how removing asbestos is expensive but has to be done. If schools don't have the resources to do that that's a matter of funding.

Obviously this is big issue for you.  My advice is to go down to your local council meeting and voice your opinion.  In Texas and Arizona we have school boards editing school books to brain wash teenagers with political propaganda.  Spending millions to rip out perfectly functional showers is not a priority for me nor most tax payers in my country.  If it is a priority for you in your country I can respect that.  You are welcome to take up the cause over there with your taxpayer funds.  I'm not going to stop you or campaign against you.  Good luck.

[Kingpoleon]

What's the point? I've made my points on this thread before, and you've merely vomited the same inane nonsense. Compulsory group showers are weird and creepy relics that should be phased out, like how removing asbestos is expensive but has to be done. If schools don't have the resources to do that that's a matter of funding.

As far as any transgender guys go, they walk around naked all the time so phasing out their group showers is just stupid.

Unless they are physically that gender, there is no need to let them in.

[Figueira]

What's the point? I've made my points on this thread before, and you've merely vomited the same inane nonsense. Compulsory group showers are weird and creepy relics that should be phased out, like how removing asbestos is expensive but has to be done. If schools don't have the resources to do that that's a matter of funding.

As far as any transgender guys go, they walk around naked all the time so phasing out their group showers is just stupid.

Unless they are physically that gender, there is no need to let them in.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

What's the point? I've made my points on this thread before, and you've merely vomited the same inane nonsense.

That's one way to make friends and win respect.

Compulsory group showers are weird and creepy relics that should be phased out, like how removing asbestos is expensive but has to be done. If schools don't have the resources to do that that's a matter of funding.

Obviously this is big issue for you.  My advice is to go down to your local council meeting and voice your opinion.  In Texas and Arizona we have school boards editing school books to brain wash teenagers with political propaganda.  Spending millions to rip out perfectly functional showers is not a priority for me nor most tax payers in my country.  If it is a priority for you in your country I can respect that.  You are welcome to take up the cause over there with your taxpayer funds.  I'm not going to stop you or campaign against you.  Good luck.

Err, yes modern, well-functioning schools with sufficient infrastructure that is capable of handling all students is a personal priority and, for that matter, most taxpayers I know of.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

This is a genuine problem but there has to be some solution to it that doesn't involve non-trans girls having to be naked around people who appear to be and may in fact still grow up to be men (trans, doesn't like weirding people about about it).

That solution is, of course,

Compulsory group showers are weird and creepy relics that should be phased out

(normal).

ETA: Also, I know that this is a minor thing to get persnickety about, but the increasingly preferred practice is to say 'trans [woman/man/girl/boy]', with the space in between, rather than making it a compound word.

[Famous Mortimer]

Society does not care about gender separate from sex. It never has. The idea of gender as separate from sex is only like 40 years old at most. If you want to be a different gender, ie define yourself by a random set of stereotypes, fine go ahead. Your sex is the same though. Locker rooms, sports, prisons, etc are divided by sex, not gender.

[ingemann]

This is a genuine problem but there has to be some solution to it that doesn't involve non-trans girls having to be naked around people who appear to be and may in fact still grow up to be men (trans, doesn't like weirding people about about it).

That solution is, of course,

Compulsory group showers are weird and creepy relics that should be phased out

(normal).

ETA: Also, I know that this is a minor thing to get persnickety about, but the increasingly preferred practice is to say 'trans [woman/man/girl/boy]', with the space in between, rather than making it a compound word.

So                            BAN IT


I knew we would end up with someone taking that POV.

[DemPGH]

"Persnickety" is one word for it. I can think of a few others.

I think of gender and sex as the same, and I won't apologize for it. I'm not going to use gender free pronouns or hyphenated or non hyphenated euphemisms du jour. If people want to invent a name for themselves or a label or a condition or whatever, they are perfectly free to do that. And I support it. But it's going to go in one of my ears and out the other and life goes on.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Yes, but unfortunately - and I hate to break this to you - the world can't revolve around you.

@ingemann, I wouldn't ban nude group showering! Whatever floats your boat, I'm a liberal, people should be able to do a they please. I oppose compulsory group showering in schools, which is one of those anachronistic educational practices that should be left in the past,p.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I think of gender and sex as the same, and I won't apologize for it.

So do transgender people just not exist in your world?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

We don't need to ban group shower areas. Accept that some kids will want to wear their swim shorts/suits while they shower, which is what I did for these situations in school and boy scouts.  Telling a transgirl she has to wear shorts during the shower or else use a private shower stall, and to agree to use a stall or else a private room when she changes if she is getting naked, should not be considered a human right violation. 

In any case what the feds are doing here is overbearing: calling this a matter of gender equality under Title IX (by that logic separate boy and girl lockers would be verboten) and penalizing the districts for coming up with a solution isn't ideal but then what is?

[Taco Truck 🚚]

Society does not care about gender separate from sex. It never has. The idea of gender as separate from sex is only like 40 years old at most. If you want to be a different gender, ie define yourself by a random set of stereotypes, fine go ahead. Your sex is the same though. Locker rooms, sports, prisons, etc are divided by sex, not gender.

Yeah that is kind of the problem people run into.  At a certain point you have to just stop having a society.  In fact stop having a language.  If up can all of a sudden mean down then everything just loses it's meaning.  Society is just a commonly agreed upon way of doing things.  And the thing is keeping naked 15 year olds with vaginas separate from naked 17 year olds with penises is pretty much a universal fact of human societies that have clothes.  And no society supports letting one penis roam around a room of naked vaginas unless it is a harem or brothel.

Societies do evolve.  I have no idea what human beings will be doing 200,000 years from now.  But this kind of force feeding of weird ideas has been done before with disastrous consequences.  Look at Africa.  Some hypothesize the global spread of HIV is a consequence of European colonization of Africa.  Recent genetic tests indicate HIV has been around for quite some time and caused no large scale problems.

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http://scitechdaily.com/genetic-history-hiv-reveals-pandemics-origins/

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Must be a weird mindset to reduce everyone you meet to their disembodied genitals, Schadenfreude. I'm afraid I don't quite follow your train of thought with the whole HiV analogy (accepting trans people is equivalent to The Scramble for Africa?), although at a guess that train has long since derailed.

@shua, I was talking about nude showers, which is a different kettle of fish. If people are wearing consumes then I see no reason to worry, or even bother segregating the genders at all (providing of course there are appropriate private stalls for the shy)

[Taco Truck 🚚]

Must be a weird mindset to reduce everyone you meet to their disembodied genitals, Schadenfreude. I'm afraid I don't quite follow your train of thought with the whole HiV analogy (accepting trans people is equivalent to The Scramble for Africa?), although at a guess that train has long since derailed.

Have fun arguing with your strawmen.  If someone wearing a hat dark glasses and an overcoat walks up to a group of women and flashes their penis at them they will describe the person as a "man" when the police ask for a description.  If you don't like that move to Mars with the 2 other weirdos on the planet who would say "I didn't have time to really get to know the person so I couldn't possibly comment on a description."

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

So                            BAN IT


I knew we would end up with someone taking that POV.

What aspect of what I was saying called for this response?

Society does not care about gender separate from sex. It never has. The idea of gender as separate from sex is only like 40 years old at most.

I understand what you're trying to communicate by making this claim, and it's (as much as it pains me to admit it) a reasonable point, but it's possible to make that point without saying manifest falsehoods.

"Persnickety" is one word for it. I can think of a few others.

I think of gender and sex as the same, and I won't apologize for it. I'm not going to use gender free pronouns or hyphenated or non hyphenated euphemisms du jour. If people want to invent a name for themselves or a label or a condition or whatever, they are perfectly free to do that. And I support it. But it's going to go in one of my ears and out the other and life goes on.

Good for you.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Yes they will say "man". They won't say "a penis flashed me" as you seem to think genitals are synonyms with people. I'm surprised you didn't describe a group of vaginas being flashed and having to talk to a policepenis.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

Must be a weird mindset to reduce everyone you meet to their disembodied genitals, Schadenfreude. I'm afraid I don't quite follow your train of thought with the whole HiV analogy (accepting trans people is equivalent to The Scramble for Africa?), although at a guess that train has long since derailed.

Have fun arguing with your strawmen.  If someone wearing a hat dark glasses and an overcoat walks up to a group of women and flashes their penis at them they will describe the person as a "man" when the police ask for a description.  If you don't like that move to Mars with the 2 other weirdos on the planet who would say "I didn't have time to really get to know the person so I couldn't possibly comment on a description."

Yes they will say "man". They won't say "a penis flashed me" as you seem to think genitals are synonyms with people. I'm surprised you didn't describe a group of vaginas being flashed and having to talk to a policepenis.

Is word salad yummy?