Austrian Elections & Politics 2.0 (Presidential runoff re-vote: 4 Dec. 2016)

[Tender Branson]

It's Öbama.

The "Ö" is for Österreich.

So, "Austrian Obama".

[Tender Branson]

If anyone wants to have some fun with Excel, the Interior Ministry has released one with all results for each state, district and town incl. postal ballot results (Wahlkarten):

http://www.bmi.gv.at/cms/BMI_wahlen/bundespraes/bpw_2016/FILES/vorlaeufiges_Gesamtergebnis_inklusive_Briefwahlstimmen_2WG.xlsx

[Tender Branson]

In other news, a 27-year old Neo-Nazi has shot and killed 2 people in Vorarlberg at a biker concert and heavily injured 10 more with a rifle, after which he killed himself:

http://www.inquisitr.com/3114329/shooting-at-concert-suicide-and-double-murder

(already happened before the election, but I somehow missed it)

[windjammer]

Do the people in this thread calling Hofer a "fascist" seriously believe that Hofer wants to abolish democracy? As far as i know that's a prerequisite of fascism.

Nah, it's just a buzzword.

Anyway, I imagine there are many people who now voted for the FPÖ for the first time. The mental "threshold" for them to do so in the next parliamentary election might be substantially lower than before (especially if VdB turns out to be a terrible anti-democrat). That's good.

I'm surprised you seem to support FPÖ considering there are a lot of antisemite tendancies in this party

[Omega21]

Do the people in this thread calling Hofer a "fascist" seriously believe that Hofer wants to abolish democracy? As far as i know that's a prerequisite of fascism.

Nah, it's just a buzzword.

Anyway, I imagine there are many people who now voted for the FPÖ for the first time. The mental "threshold" for them to do so in the next parliamentary election might be substantially lower than before (especially if VdB turns out to be a terrible anti-democrat). That's good.

I'm surprised you seem to support FPÖ considering there are a lot of antisemite tendancies in this party

Not really.

Spo has many prominent Muslim Antisemitic members, look it up. Tender talked about it if i recall correctly.

Also, there are some High ranking SPO members from the past who were Nazis back in the day.

Strache only once posted a sort of Antisemitic photo on his page, which really dissapointed me in him.

[Boston Bread]

Congrats to VdB! Seems like a great candidate.

[Cranberry]

Very nice maps, Tender. Sadly, my district (Imst) sticks out like a sore thumb in the sea of green that is the West. Still, this map once again shows us that the west is just the best part of Austria

[DavidB.]

I'm surprised you seem to support FPÖ considering there are a lot of antisemite tendancies in this party

I have no illusions about the FPÖ. I don't think they're true friends of the Jewish people. However, I do think they can be useful allies. After all, despite the fact that quite some ethnic Austrians might be antisemitic (as my family knows all about) and despite the fact that Strache "ordering three beers" does not exactly make me like him, non-natives (and I'm not talking about the Chinese here) pose the greatest threat to Jews and Jewish life in Western Europe, and it is solely because of them that our institutions need to be protected and that we sometimes cannot walk on the streets safely while being dressed visibly Jewish. The FPÖ is the only party that is against such immigration. Moreover, it is the only Austrian party that is quite pro-Israel and that is in touch with proud Israeli lawmakers on a constant basis. I don't "like" supporting Hofer or the FPÖ, but there is no alternative (though in the last election I supported the disaster named Team Stronach).

[windjammer]

I'm surprised you seem to support FPÖ considering there are a lot of antisemite tendancies in this party

I have no illusions about the FPÖ. I don't think they're true friends of the Jewish people. However, I do think they can be useful allies. After all, despite the fact that quite some ethnic Austrians might be antisemitic (as my family knows all about) and despite the fact that Strache "ordering three beers" does not exactly make me like him, non-natives (and I'm not talking about the Chinese here) pose the greatest threat to Jews and Jewish life in Western Europe, and it is solely because of them that our institutions need to be protected and that we sometimes cannot walk on the streets safely while being dressed visibly Jewish. The FPÖ is the only party that is against such immigration. Moreover, it is the only Austrian party that is quite pro-Israel and that is in touch with proud Israeli lawmakers on a constant basis. I don't "like" supporting Hofer or the FPÖ, but there is no alternative (though in the last election I supported the disaster named Team Stronach).

Non natives a treat to jews???

[DavidB.]

Non natives a treat to jews???

Toulouse? Brussels? Copenhagen? Hypercacher? Ilan Halimi? And then all these "small", "insignificant" acts of violence and threats that go unnoticed for the general public.

[Unimog]

Yes they are.

France has a problem with antisemitic violence, caused by their citizens of north african descent.

Germany has too, to a lesser extent, but their some ugly incidents in Berlin.

And  generally spoken, everybody must make himself clear, if you let 100K people in your country, which share a hate on Israel and the jews, that is going to cause problems.

To be clear I am in favor of immigration, but we need to address the problems.

[windjammer]

Non natives a treat to jews???

Toulouse? Brussels? Copenhagen? Hypercacher? Ilan Halimi? And then all these "small", "insignificant" acts of violence and threats that go unnoticed for the general public.

Toulouse? You mean Mohammed Merah?
It happened in 2012 much before the refugee crisis. And Mohammed Merah wasn't even a refugee. He was french.
And regarding Bruxelles, same thing, it has been perpetuated by people born in Belgium, not by Syrian refugees.

[Lief 🗽]

Ahhh, such beautiful maps:

How similar/different is this from a normal 50-50 left-right map?

[Dutch Conservative]

Non natives a treat to jews???

Toulouse? Brussels? Copenhagen? Hypercacher? Ilan Halimi? And then all these "small", "insignificant" acts of violence and threats that go unnoticed for the general public.

Toulouse? You mean Mohammed Merah?
It happened in 2012 much before the refugee crisis. And Mohammed Merah wasn't even a refugee. He was french.
And regarding Bruxelles, same thing, it has been perpetuated by people born in Belgium, not by Syrian refugees.

Interesting to read from someone across the ocean that knows better wat is going on here. Have you been to some area's in European city's? Did you to Amsterdam? To the Molenwijk in Bruxelles? Or did you visit Kanaleneiland in Utrecht?

These problems are real. Jewish schools in Amsterdam are sometimes having trouble securing their pupils. That's why these so-called right-wing-populists parties are on the rise. They understand these problems, start to discuss them and are offering solutions. Well, we can discuss wich solution is better, but you cannot deny these problems. They are real and with all the refugees coming things arent getting any better.

[DavidB.]

Toulouse? You mean Mohammed Merah?
It happened in 2012 much before the refugee crisis. And Mohammed Merah wasn't even a refugee. He was french.
And regarding Bruxelles, same thing, it has been perpetuated by people born in Belgium, not by Syrian refugees.

I was not talking about "refugees" specifically, I was talking about Muslims. And most "refugees" happen to be Muslims. Now, I have quite a lot in common with Muslims. Jews have quite a lot in common with Muslims. I enjoy travelling in Muslim countries and I can appreciate certain aspects of Arab and Turkish culture. But as a group, Muslims in Western Europe are undeniably the biggest threat to Jewish life and Jews in Western Europe. Yes, there are "native" antisemites too, but all major violent antisemitic attacks are perpetrated by Muslims and almost all of the times my friends or I were cursed at, spat at, or worse, it was by Muslims. They are the ones making the "price" of living in Western Europe extremely high, causing many to move to Israel or America. So it is in our interest to prevent even more of them from immigrating to Europe. Unfortunately, that's how it is.

But let's not "hijack" this thread too much anymore

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Non natives a treat to jews???

Toulouse? Brussels? Copenhagen? Hypercacher? Ilan Halimi? And then all these "small", "insignificant" acts of violence and threats that go unnoticed for the general public.

Toulouse? You mean Mohammed Merah?
It happened in 2012 much before the refugee crisis. And Mohammed Merah wasn't even a refugee. He was french.
And regarding Bruxelles, same thing, it has been perpetuated by people born in Belgium, not by Syrian refugees.

Interesting to read from someone across the ocean that knows better wat is going on here. Have you been to some area's in European city's? Did you to Amsterdam? To the Molenwijk in Bruxelles? Or did you visit Kanaleneiland in Utrecht?

These problems are real. Jewish schools in Amsterdam are sometimes having trouble securing their pupils. That's why these so-called right-wing-populists parties are on the rise. They understand these problems, start to discuss them and are offering solutions. Well, we can discuss wich solution is better, but you cannot deny these problems. They are real and with all the refugees coming things arent getting any better.

I have pretty reliable Intel that suggests windjammer often is in areas of Europe. One piece of evidence is that he is French. Another is that he lives in France.

[rob in cal]

  If Hofer had won and then used his office to force new elections for the parliament, I wonder if that would have back fired, as it might have created a narrative of "undemocratic" President Hofer trying to subvert the parliament, no Austrian president has ever done this, fascism is near at hand etc etc
Now, the next parliamentary elections if they take place as scheduled would avoid this dynamic, though perhaps by 2018 the FPO might not be as strong as it is now, so that would be the negative for the FPO in this scenario.

[Cranberry]

Non natives a treat to jews???

Toulouse? Brussels? Copenhagen? Hypercacher? Ilan Halimi? And then all these "small", "insignificant" acts of violence and threats that go unnoticed for the general public.

Toulouse? You mean Mohammed Merah?
It happened in 2012 much before the refugee crisis. And Mohammed Merah wasn't even a refugee. He was french.
And regarding Bruxelles, same thing, it has been perpetuated by people born in Belgium, not by Syrian refugees.

I'm pretty sure David knows that as much as we do. Still, he does have a point - there is a considerable amount of anti-semitism present in modern Europe, and this is anti-semitism is present to a larger amount among groups with a migrant background than among those of "native population", to use a term I do not quite like myself but that is probably understood. That it is not to say that this is only limited to people with migrant backgrounds, far from it actually, nor that this migrant background is the direct reason for its manifestation - in fact, this has far more to do with a certain socio-economic background, which people with a migrant background are sadly far too often trapped in in modern European society (there is I guess no word to better sum up this socio-economic background than Banlieue). But the fact is that there is a problem with anti-semitism, one the left or "established" parties are quite often a bit too quick to dismiss as "non-significant" or even petty, often in a false fear of being labeled anti-immigrant or racist or whatnot. This has one sad result - it allows far right parties, be it FN or PVV or DFP or FPÖ, to capitalise on this issue, and put up a correlation with islamphobia and anti-immigrant sentiments that, in my eyes, should not exist.

So to sum up, I agree with David that there is an issue with anti-semitism, that this is often related with migrant communities, and that this issue is not treated accordingly by leftist and established parties. I believe this needs to be adressed, also by leftist and established parties, but not by putting the blame on migrant communities such as far right parties currently do, but by actively combating and showing absolutely no tolerance to anti-semitism wherever it may arise, if among people with migrant background or among "native" Europeans.

[Dutch Conservative]

Non natives a treat to jews???

Toulouse? Brussels? Copenhagen? Hypercacher? Ilan Halimi? And then all these "small", "insignificant" acts of violence and threats that go unnoticed for the general public.

Toulouse? You mean Mohammed Merah?
It happened in 2012 much before the refugee crisis. And Mohammed Merah wasn't even a refugee. He was french.
And regarding Bruxelles, same thing, it has been perpetuated by people born in Belgium, not by Syrian refugees.

Interesting to read from someone across the ocean that knows better wat is going on here. Have you been to some area's in European city's? Did you to Amsterdam? To the Molenwijk in Bruxelles? Or did you visit Kanaleneiland in Utrecht?

These problems are real. Jewish schools in Amsterdam are sometimes having trouble securing their pupils. That's why these so-called right-wing-populists parties are on the rise. They understand these problems, start to discuss them and are offering solutions. Well, we can discuss wich solution is better, but you cannot deny these problems. They are real and with all the refugees coming things arent getting any better.

I have pretty reliable Intel that suggests windjammer often is in areas of Europe. One piece of evidence is that he is French. Another is that he lives in France.

Oops..the mistake of a noob. I apologies for that remark then (but his profile says Michigan right).

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

lol@ all the fascists crawling out of the woodwork to defend hofer

[DavidB.]

So to sum up, I agree with David that there is an issue with anti-semitism, that this is often related with migrant communities, and that this issue is not treated accordingly by leftist and established parties. I believe this needs to be adressed, also by leftist and established parties, but not by putting the blame on migrant communities such as far right parties currently do, but by actively combating and showing absolutely no tolerance to anti-semitism wherever it may arise, if among people with migrant background or among "native" Europeans.

If only more people would think like you do

[ag]

I have just realized one thing about Van der Bellen: he is, actually, an economist. I mean, I knew that, but when I first read it, I thought of somebody like Varoufakis. Actually, as a colleague today pointed out, this guy has done some serious work in his day. He is good.

The other interesting thing: he owes his name to a Turk In fact, his best three publications are all with the same Turkish guy (much more famous than VdB in the narrow circles). And, I bet, these are the publications that gave him credibility when he was moving to the academic bureacracy, from which he emerged as a politician. He has every ground for very strong Turkophilia

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Anyway moving on, shall we talk about the truly important aspect of this election? Namely LOOOOOOOOOOOL SPOVP

[Cranberry]

So to sum up, I agree with David that there is an issue with anti-semitism, that this is often related with migrant communities, and that this issue is not treated accordingly by leftist and established parties. I believe this needs to be adressed, also by leftist and established parties, but not by putting the blame on migrant communities such as far right parties currently do, but by actively combating and showing absolutely no tolerance to anti-semitism wherever it may arise, if among people with migrant background or among "native" Europeans.

If only more people would think like you do

Don't be too quick with that, I'm sure you would hate basically all the rest of my positions and ideas

[DavidB.]

Anyway moving on, shall we talk about the truly important aspect of this election? Namely LOOOOOOOOOOOL SPOVP

Yeah, totally deserved.

Don't be too quick with that, I'm sure you would hate basically all the rest of my positions and ideas

I meant on this issue lol. But I also don't think I'd hate basically all the rest of your ideas.