Canada General Discussion: Trudeau II

[Hatman 🍁]

The NDP has a lot of problems. Hopefully this will fix some of them, but I wouldn't count on it.

We're probably going to get a useless and incompetent leader who can't debate or talk about public policy like an adult. I'm betting on Nikki Ashton.

Yeah, my worry about all of this is who will replace Mulcair. Ashton could be a disaster. Doubt she would win though.

[RogueBeaver]

Cullen, Ashton, Angus possible. Boulerice not this cycle, but he should be kept as Quebec lieutenant.

[Poirot]

I found this news:

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Looks like Mulcair was in a no win situation with the Leap manifesto. Alberta angry he didn't shut it down. Those who find him not enough left or accuse the party of not listening to grassroots were already unhappy. Imagine if party leadership was seen as trying to obstruct debating the resolution.

I don't understand what the Alberta delegates get by a change in leadership (besides an expression of their frustration). It's not like the next leader will be pro oil sands.

[Holmes]

Well, it's not my New Democratic Party of 2011 anymore. That was peak NDP and now we're back to full on "shoot self in the foot for the sake of it" mode. At least Horvath isn't horrible, I'll continue to support her and the provincial party, but at least I won't have to live under Premier Brown.

[Vega]

Well, it's not my New Democratic Party of 2011 anymore. That was peak NDP and now we're back to full on "shoot self in the foot for the sake of it" mode. At least Horvath isn't horrible, I'll continue to support her and the provincial party, but at least I won't have to live under Premier Brown.

I hardly consider peak NDP being at the point when the Liberals are to the left of you.

[RogueBeaver]

View from Alberta: Notley's been betrayed and should UDI from the federal party.

Interview with Don Davies and Matt Dubé.

[Holmes]

Well, it's not my New Democratic Party of 2011 anymore. That was peak NDP and now we're back to full on "shoot self in the foot for the sake of it" mode. At least Horvath isn't horrible, I'll continue to support her and the provincial party, but at least I won't have to live under Premier Brown.

I hardly consider peak NDP being at the point when the Liberals are to the left of you.

Cool, but living under an NDP opposition was the only good thing about a Conservative majority at the time, and they were a damn good opposition under competent leadership. I don't give a damn about some poor stupid delegates thinking that the party doesn't seem to be left-wing enough for them. They've only put another obstacle in the NDP's long road out of obscurity.

[MaxQue]

Well, it's not my New Democratic Party of 2011 anymore. That was peak NDP and now we're back to full on "shoot self in the foot for the sake of it" mode. At least Horvath isn't horrible, I'll continue to support her and the provincial party, but at least I won't have to live under Premier Brown.

I hardly consider peak NDP being at the point when the Liberals are to the left of you.

Cool, but living under an NDP opposition was the only good thing about a Conservative majority at the time, and they were a damn good opposition under competent leadership. I don't give a damn about some poor stupid delegates thinking that the party doesn't seem to be left-wing enough for them. They've only put another obstacle in the NDP's long road out of obscurity.

I'm pretty sure the issue of all the petro-delegates of Alberta wasn't that. They want yet naother petro-party.

[Hatman 🍁]

Well, it's not my New Democratic Party of 2011 anymore. That was peak NDP and now we're back to full on "shoot self in the foot for the sake of it" mode. At least Horvath isn't horrible, I'll continue to support her and the provincial party, but at least I won't have to live under Premier Brown.

I hardly consider peak NDP being at the point when the Liberals are to the left of you.

Cool, but living under an NDP opposition was the only good thing about a Conservative majority at the time, and they were a damn good opposition under competent leadership. I don't give a damn about some poor stupid delegates thinking that the party doesn't seem to be left-wing enough for them. They've only put another obstacle in the NDP's long road out of obscurity.

Being a rhetorical carbon copy of the Liberals is a sure fire way to obscurity though. It's unfortunate, but the Libs have triangulated, and the NDP needs to distance themselves. It's not going to get them power, but it will save them from being wiped out.

[RogueBeaver]

Cam Broten resigns.

[MaxQue]

Well, it's not my New Democratic Party of 2011 anymore. That was peak NDP and now we're back to full on "shoot self in the foot for the sake of it" mode. At least Horvath isn't horrible, I'll continue to support her and the provincial party, but at least I won't have to live under Premier Brown.

I hardly consider peak NDP being at the point when the Liberals are to the left of you.

Cool, but living under an NDP opposition was the only good thing about a Conservative majority at the time, and they were a damn good opposition under competent leadership. I don't give a damn about some poor stupid delegates thinking that the party doesn't seem to be left-wing enough for them. They've only put another obstacle in the NDP's long road out of obscurity.

Being a rhetorical carbon copy of the Liberals is a sure fire way to obscurity though. It's unfortunate, but the Libs have triangulated, and the NDP needs to distance themselves. It's not going to get them power, but it will save them from being wiped out.

That's the thing. If Liberals and NDP are seen as being at the same place, Liberals win, since their machine is much better than ours.

[RogueBeaver]

Justin is gonna support Kinder Morgan expansion and Energy East.

[Derpist]

Well, it's not my New Democratic Party of 2011 anymore. That was peak NDP and now we're back to full on "shoot self in the foot for the sake of it" mode. At least Horvath isn't horrible, I'll continue to support her and the provincial party, but at least I won't have to live under Premier Brown.

I hardly consider peak NDP being at the point when the Liberals are to the left of you.

Cool, but living under an NDP opposition was the only good thing about a Conservative majority at the time, and they were a damn good opposition under competent leadership. I don't give a damn about some poor stupid delegates thinking that the party doesn't seem to be left-wing enough for them. They've only put another obstacle in the NDP's long road out of obscurity.

Being a rhetorical carbon copy of the Liberals is a sure fire way to obscurity though. It's unfortunate, but the Libs have triangulated, and the NDP needs to distance themselves. It's not going to get them power, but it will save them from being wiped out.

The NDP wasn't a carbon copy of the Liberals. They were much more fiscally responsible, well-versed in policy, and serious about governing. Which is why Trudeau won.

[DC Al Fine]

Formee interim NS NDP leader Maureen MacDonald has resigned her seat.

Her riding is quite NDP friendly, but the Liberals are still polling well above their 2013 result, and MacDonald was quite popular personally. Liberals may win the by-election, but I still give the NDP the edge.

[Hatman 🍁]

Well, it's not my New Democratic Party of 2011 anymore. That was peak NDP and now we're back to full on "shoot self in the foot for the sake of it" mode. At least Horvath isn't horrible, I'll continue to support her and the provincial party, but at least I won't have to live under Premier Brown.

I hardly consider peak NDP being at the point when the Liberals are to the left of you.

Cool, but living under an NDP opposition was the only good thing about a Conservative majority at the time, and they were a damn good opposition under competent leadership. I don't give a damn about some poor stupid delegates thinking that the party doesn't seem to be left-wing enough for them. They've only put another obstacle in the NDP's long road out of obscurity.

Being a rhetorical carbon copy of the Liberals is a sure fire way to obscurity though. It's unfortunate, but the Libs have triangulated, and the NDP needs to distance themselves. It's not going to get them power, but it will save them from being wiped out.

The NDP wasn't a carbon copy of the Liberals. They were much more fiscally responsible, well-versed in policy, and serious about governing. Which is why Trudeau won.

Those differences were glossed over by most voters though.

[Derpist]

Well, it's not my New Democratic Party of 2011 anymore. That was peak NDP and now we're back to full on "shoot self in the foot for the sake of it" mode. At least Horvath isn't horrible, I'll continue to support her and the provincial party, but at least I won't have to live under Premier Brown.

I hardly consider peak NDP being at the point when the Liberals are to the left of you.

Cool, but living under an NDP opposition was the only good thing about a Conservative majority at the time, and they were a damn good opposition under competent leadership. I don't give a damn about some poor stupid delegates thinking that the party doesn't seem to be left-wing enough for them. They've only put another obstacle in the NDP's long road out of obscurity.

Being a rhetorical carbon copy of the Liberals is a sure fire way to obscurity though. It's unfortunate, but the Libs have triangulated, and the NDP needs to distance themselves. It's not going to get them power, but it will save them from being wiped out.

The NDP wasn't a carbon copy of the Liberals. They were much more fiscally responsible, well-versed in policy, and serious about governing. Which is why Trudeau won.

Those differences were glossed over by most voters though.

The NDP still managed to sort-of-survive. If anything, I suspect Trudeau's unseriousness and moral preening is what propelled him to victory among the Laurentian elites and the Yuppie "left".

[2952-0-0]

A shameless plug to my prediction all the way back on October 1...

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=216858.900

[Derpist]

A shameless plug to my prediction all the way back on October 1...

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=216858.900

If anything, you understated how badly the NDP was going to get wrecked.

Harper always wanted a two-party system in Canada. He got it. Except the other party isn't the NDP.

In the sense that the Tories can't nominate another Harper, that seems about correct. The old coalition between a solid West and a solid Ontario doesn't really seem plausible anymore to me. A mathematical Tory majority seems hard without Quebec.

[RogueBeaver]

Christy Clark is also moving towards yes on Trans Mountain.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I wonder whether the Tory majority of 2011 and especially its Ontario results was really just down to the Liberals having a spectacularly bad leader.

Anyway, what is the story wrt weed and the voting system? I haven't been paying attention to Canada recently.

[Hatman 🍁]

I wonder whether the Tory majority of 2011 and especially its Ontario results was really just down to the Liberals having a spectacularly bad leader.

This was very much part of it, yes. Maybe even the biggest part.

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Still in the works as far as I know.

[RogueBeaver]

Hopefully Brown refuses to sign this asshole's nomination papers. Problem solved.

[MaxQue]

Hopefully Brown refuses to sign this asshole's nomination papers. Problem solved.

PC can't afford to upset the Ontario Landowners Association. They are the reason John Tory lost his by-election and they are quite powerful in rural Eastern Ontario.

[Poirot]

An article in Le Journal de Montréal asking if it's the end of the NDP in Québec.

http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2016/04/12/vers-la-fin-du-npd-au-quebec

After kicking out Mulcair two political scientists are pessimistic. Think support for NDP will drop. The party has no deep roots. In the province it was the party of two men: Layotn and Mulcair. Voters vote for the leader. If the next leader is not from Quebec, it doesn't look good. Could be wiped off the map. Their support is fragile and the Trudeau brand is strong.

Another is less pessimistic. Says the party has developped an organization. It will depend on the next leadership race, if there are candidates from Quebec, will the party question it's openess to Quebec. NDP will need to make Quebec a priority if they want to take power or become a strong opposition.     

[Hatman 🍁]

Harper wasn't from Quebec and he won seats in Quebec. The NDP needs to focus on holding on to the more left wing ridings, like Rosemont and Laurier-Ste. Marie, in the same way the Tories are strong in the Chaudiere-Appalaches.