Abortion and the Death Penalty

[Ebowed]

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

[phk]

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on values.

[TheWildCard]

So just to clearify your stance Ebowed, you are against both abortion and the death penalty. And, you feel that the Death Penalty will lead us down a slippery slope where if you shop lift a candy bar you could get killed as punishment. Is that right?

[phk]

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on values.

Neither do you.

Did I ever claim to? No

[Ebowed]

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on values.

When did I say it does.....?

So just to clearify your stance Ebowed, you are against both abortion and the death penalty. And, you feel that the Death Penalty will lead us down a slippery slope where if you shop lift a candy bar you could get killed as punishment. Is that right?

Potentially, but that's unlikely.  I just think we're going too far when our Vice President wants to make spying a capital crime.

[minionofmidas]

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on values.

When did I say it does.....?

Here:

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

Rocket has obviously been leading you on, guys. He does that a lot.

[minionofmidas]

I think it's far more contradictory to support abortion, and oppose the death penalty, than the other way around.

Logically, I find it hard to understand the logic behind support for killing innocent unborn babies, but insisting that it's wrong to execute brutal murderers.

I really don't want to get into a debate on abortion yet again, but I would say that 99% of those who support abortion don't believe that it's murder during the period in which they support it.  They don't think that killing babies is okay; what they think is that it isn't killing babies.

I think a certain amount of rationalization takes place among the supporters of abortion, in order to justify the views that they hold, basically, for reasons of expediency.

While I think a certain amount of mystification takes place among the supporters of the death penalty, in order to justify the views that they hold for a number of diverse reasons, some of them too deep to fathom, others (in some) stemming from racial hatred.

[Ebowed]

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on values.

When did I say it does.....?

Here:

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

Rocket has obviously been leading you on, guys. He does that a lot.

First of all, someone who wants to force abortions on people doesn't have good values, because that goes against the idea of 'choice' that the abortionists claim to care so much about.  Secondly, I never stated that Christianity had a monopoly on values.  I did not say:

"Good values"?  You know Christianity has a monopoly on that, right?

[dazzleman]

I think it's far more contradictory to support abortion, and oppose the death penalty, than the other way around.

Logically, I find it hard to understand the logic behind support for killing innocent unborn babies, but insisting that it's wrong to execute brutal murderers.

I really don't want to get into a debate on abortion yet again, but I would say that 99% of those who support abortion don't believe that it's murder during the period in which they support it.  They don't think that killing babies is okay; what they think is that it isn't killing babies.

I think a certain amount of rationalization takes place among the supporters of abortion, in order to justify the views that they hold, basically, for reasons of expediency.

Personally, I base my views off of what's happened (or hasn't happened) so far in the growth of the fetus at each stage.  Even if what you say is true for some supporters of abortion, I still think it's way oversimplifying things to simply say that they know it's killing babies and are okay with that.

I wouldn't be that absolute.  I think it's a matter of degree, depending upon the person.  But there are some who are OK with abortion, whether they think it's killing a baby or not.  Those who support extremely late-term abortions without restriction, as an example.

[minionofmidas]

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on values.

When did I say it does.....?

Here:

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

Rocket has obviously been leading you on, guys. He does that a lot.

First of all, someone who wants to force abortions on people doesn't have good values

Well, that's obvious, obviously. Although I don't think you can take what he said up there at face value.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[/quote]Well, you did say...

"Good values"?  I thought you were an athiest.

You're right, that doesn't say Christianity has a monopoly on good values...it "just" says that no atheists have any good values...which is a statement that most atheists would be quite right to take as an offense.

Whatever "good values" is supposed to be (originally Rocket's words, I know)...

[Hitchabrut]

I'm still mixed on the death penalty. My religion says to oppose it, but there are some people out there that deserve it (most recently they guy in Illinois who killed his daughter and her friend - but Ill. former Gov. put a freeze on the death penalty in his last day of office so he probably won't be executed anyway). However there are a number of issues more important than the death penalty that this will rarely affect my vote for a candidate in an election.

I saw a survey last week "Most Americans Pro-Choice - Support Right to Choose on Social Security". Nader also said to people who did not want him to run that they are hypocrits for being Pro-Choice on abortion but not on Ballot Access.

However, between abortion and the death penalty, most people support one and oppose the other. Rarely do you find someone supporting or opposing both.

What religion?

[Brandon H]

What religion?

Catholic.

[migrendel]

It is my personal view that abortion and capital punishment are intrinsically different. By allowing abortion, the government is non-preferential on the matter, and allows the choice to be made by the individual. In this case, the government can be said to have a profound respect for life, but this view is tempered by an equally profound respect for personal freedom.

I find it hard to do this with capital punishment, however. The government, by its own authority, has made the decision to kill a person. That is an active and partisan approach that favors death over life. It bears no resemblance to a tolerance of individual autonomy in the personal decision over abortion, or even the indirect support through government funding of abortion.

I do recognize that this debate is entirely subjective. Others will come up with different philosophical approaches that reach other results, and such views are equally valid. I imagine it is fundamentally a question of what you view as important.

[TeePee4Prez]

It is my personal view that abortion and capital punishment are intrinsically different. By allowing abortion, the government is non-preferential on the matter, and allows the choice to be made by the individual. In this case, the government can be said to have a profound respect for life, but this view is tempered by an equally profound respect for personal freedom.

I find it hard to do this with capital punishment, however. The government, by its own authority, has made the decision to kill a person. That is an active and partisan approach that favors death over life. It bears no resemblance to a tolerance of individual autonomy in the personal decision over abortion, or even the indirect support through government funding of abortion.

I do recognize that this debate is entirely subjective. Others will come up with different philosophical approaches that reach other results, and such views are equally valid. I imagine it is fundamentally a question of what you view as important.

This is a pinnacle example of why you are one of the best legal minds on this Forum.  It's a shame only a few people I know can actually make sense of what you just said.  I never looked to argue these two points in the manner you just did.  I ALWAYS get questioned why I oppose the death penalty and favor abortion rights.  Speak of the devil, an op-ed was jsut published in none other than our local paper the Northeast Times stating the exact opposite of what you just said albeit in a much less eloquent way.  The answer is simply "person murdred someone, they should die,  baby didn't do anything.. DUH!"  This is incredibly oversimplistic, yet many of us have a very difficult time defending it. 

[migrendel]

I know it can be difficult to articulate a philosophically consistent set of views, but I do believe with patience and reflection we can resolve these issues logically.

[Cashcow]

I think it's far more contradictory to support abortion, and oppose the death penalty, than the other way around.

Logically, I find it hard to understand the logic behind support for killing innocent unborn babies, but insisting that it's wrong to execute brutal murderers.

I really don't want to get into a debate on abortion yet again, but I would say that 99% of those who support abortion don't believe that it's murder during the period in which they support it.  They don't think that killing babies is okay; what they think is that it isn't killing babies.

I think a certain amount of rationalization takes place among the supporters of abortion, in order to justify the views that they hold, basically, for reasons of expediency.

So, essentially, anyone who disagrees with you is a deplorable, baby-hating sadist.

[Beet]

I am mixed on the death penalty. I traditionally support it, but the image of an actual execution is truly disturbing.

[TheWildCard]

Thought I'd bring this back up because a point my philosophy professor made last semester came back to me.

How can Liberals call themselves pro-choice? It costs so much to raise a child that it is likely that if all the people who had abortions did not many of their kids could not be taken care of. So even though pro-choicers say they are pro-choice there really is no other option for these women.

Thoughts?