Something strange is happening demographically-speaking (user search)
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  Something strange is happening demographically-speaking (search mode)
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Author Topic: Something strange is happening demographically-speaking  (Read 6963 times)
jimrtex
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« on: October 27, 2015, 11:17:35 PM »

Looking at France and Hungary, it would appear that the seasonal rise in deaths was unusually small in 2013/14 and then unusually large in 2014/15.

This would relate to the annual rise in deaths that occurs beginning in October and peaking in January.  In France and Hungary, deaths remained high into February and March while in many other years deaths dropped off rapidly after January.

There has been a general rise in deaths over the past 10 years and 2014 was actually the odd one out on the trend.  It would make sense that 2015 would see a higher number of deaths from the same cause that didn't kill people in 2014.

Census Bureau international gateway

Looking at France for one-year age cohorts for 2010, 2015, 2020 there has been a huge increase in older persons due to the influx of those born after WWII, replacing those who weren't born during the war. The number of persons born in 1948 is about 55% greater than those born in 1943 (at the same age). The 48ers are now 67 and beginning to die at increasing rates.

There has also been a big increase in those born after WWI, compared to those not born in WWI, though those born after WWI would have borne some of the dying in WWII. At that age, large numbers die every year (getting close to 10%).

The median age for those over 65 has been declining in France due to the post-WWII generation entering the ranks. This will drive the death rate over 65's up, while continuing to increase the death rate for the whole population.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2015, 01:58:43 AM »

Looking at France and Hungary, it would appear that the seasonal rise in deaths was unusually small in 2013/14 and then unusually large in 2014/15.

This would relate to the annual rise in deaths that occurs beginning in October and peaking in January.  In France and Hungary, deaths remained high into February and March while in many other years deaths dropped off rapidly after January.

There has been a general rise in deaths over the past 10 years and 2014 was actually the odd one out on the trend.  It would make sense that 2015 would see a higher number of deaths from the same cause that didn't kill people in 2014.

Census Bureau international gateway

Looking at France for one-year age cohorts for 2010, 2015, 2020 there has been a huge increase in older persons due to the influx of those born after WWII, replacing those who weren't born during the war. The number of persons born in 1948 is about 55% greater than those born in 1943 (at the same age). The 48ers are now 67 and beginning to die at increasing rates.

There has also been a big increase in those born after WWI, compared to those not born in WWI, though those born after WWI would have borne some of the dying in WWII. At that age, large numbers die every year (getting close to 10%).

The median age for those over 65 has been declining in France due to the post-WWII generation entering the ranks. This will drive the death rate over 65's up, while continuing to increase the death rate for the whole population.
Yes im well aware of all that.  But this extends somewhat to South Korea as well.  And these are year over year. The sudden rise in births after wwii (but not in Germany) will only be apparent over several years.
I thought you said that 2014 was anomalously low?

Between 2010 and 2010, the share of the Korean population over 60 has increased from 15.6% to 23.0%.


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jimrtex
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2015, 01:39:23 AM »

The baby boomer argument is also thrown out because not all of the countries we currently have data for had a baby boom during or immediately after WWII.  Germany's boom was in the 30s with a big drop in births during the war that reached its nadir in 1945/46 followed by a steady rise in births until 1963.  This was different than France which had very low birth rates during the 30s and 40s until 1946 when there was a big boom.
You need to look at the older age groups.

There are more 79-year-olds than newborns in Germany. Between 2010 and 2015 there was a 31% increase in those 75-79, as the pre-WWII baby boom replaced those born during the deep depression. By 2020, this group will have dropped by 11% as those born during WWII enter that age. It won't reach the the same numbers until 2034 when those born in the late 1950s enter that group.

Meanwhile the number 80-84 will increase by 33% by 2020.

There was also a big differential between those born during WWI and those immediately after, though the overall effect is diminished as these boomers are now over 90. The number 90-94 increased by 58% between 2010 and 2015. The number 95-99 has increased 43% in two years from 2014 to 2016.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2015, 05:33:11 AM »

But I haven't even looked at Germany's data.  I looked at France and Hungary.  France's birth rate declined throughout the 19th century and was already the lowest in the world by the turn of the 20th century with births generally declining each year and the population stagnating.

WWI was a huge hit to France and its aged population while younger Germany surged upward played a big role in how France did in the World Wars.

But my point is that France saw declining total births from 1900-1945.. falling from 917,000 in 1901 to 800,000 by 1911-13.  The post WWI "boom" was only 838,000 in 1920 but then births fell to 700,000 by about 1932/33 and further to 600,000 at the onset of the war.  They fell as low as 520,000 in 1941 before climbing during the rest of the war to 645,000 in 1945... but then the boom came and births jumped to 800,000+ and as high as 880,000 from 1946-1974.  Since 1975 they have generally been between 750,000-800,000 with a brief fall to as low as 710,000 in the early '90s.

So French mortality should be rising only very slowly for a few more years before the older baby boomers begin to push it up.  And yes I know how morbid this conversation sounds.
International Data Base

Pick France; 1990-2020 by increments of 5; 5-year older cohorts.

We can assume relatively little migration for these age groups, and no births, so we can measure the number of deaths for a given 5-year cohort over a 5-year period.

The number of deaths among those 65+ over the previous 5 year period was steady from 1990 to 2010, when it jumped significantly by 2015 and 2020:

1995: 2161K elderly deaths.
2000: 2137K elderly deaths.
2005: 2158K elderly deaths.
2010: 2142K elderly deaths.
2015: 2406K elderly deaths.
2020: 2662K elderly deaths.

Of the increase between 2010 and 2015:

56K was due to aging boomers going from 60-64 in 2010, to 65-69 in 2015.
-17K was due those born between 1925 and 1944.
251K was due to those born between 1920 and 1924, replacing those born between 1915 and 1920.
-26K was due to those born before 1920.

Of the increase between 2015 and 2020:

74K due to aging boomers who will be reaching 75.
+26K due to those born between 1925 and 1944.
161K due to those born between 1920 and 1924 replacing those born between 1915 and 1920.
-5K was due to those born before 1920.

There have been drops in age-based death rates, due to improving heath conditions. Among those who were 60-64 in 1990, 6.4% died by 1995. Among those 60-64 in 2015, 4.1% will die by 2020. There were roughly 3 million such persons in 1990 and 4 million in 2015, but total deaths declined.

Among those 85-90 in 1990, 56.0% died by 1995. Among those 85-90 in 2015, 47% will have died by 2015.

But if we compare relative rates:

4.1% / 6.4% = 36% decline.
47.0% / 56.0% = 16% decline.

2015: Boomers 60-69 are 6.1 as numerous as those born between 1920 and 1925. The number of deaths will be almost equal.

Those born during and before WWI are almost gone but not quite.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2015, 10:35:08 PM »

You're not taking into account that those born in 1920-24 would have had higher death rates their whole lives compared to those born 1945-49.  Also you don't take into account that many more migrants to France were born 1945-49 compared to 1920-24.
These don't matter for my methodology.

If someone born in 1923 in Algeria (or born in France and moved to Algeria) and then repatriated to France after Algerian independence, was living in France in 2010 (87 years old), then by 2015 he would either be dead or be living in France in 2015 as a 92-year old. Emigrants at that age are rare. It doesn't matter that most of his fellow Frenchmen born in 1923 were dead by 2010. We're only looking at the number of people in his age group who died over a 5-year period.

If someone was born in 1946 and 64 YO in 2010 and living in France, then by 2015 they would be 69 YO and living in France, or dead. There would be a little migration. An earlier immigrant's widowed mother moves from Mali to live with her son. Or a retired immigrant moves back to Algeria to live off their petition. But if they had been in France for 40 years, and their children and grandchildren live in France, they may be inclined to stay.

I will make a spreadsheet to show what I am saying.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2015, 02:13:21 AM »

You're not taking into account that those born in 1920-24 would have had higher death rates their whole lives compared to those born 1945-49.  Also you don't take into account that many more migrants to France were born 1945-49 compared to 1920-24.

France population spreadsheet.

The spreadsheet covers 1990 to 2020, with the population by one year age groups, except for 5-year groups for 85-89; 90-94; and 95-99; and unlimited for 100+.

The groups born in WWI and WWII are indicated in red. Those born between 1890-1900 who would have born the brunt of WWI are indicated in grey.

For each year, the population is in the first column, the second column is the difference between persons who are age N in year Y, and who were N-1 in Y-1. The difference represents net migration minus deaths.

Under 40 you are seeing in-migration. Past 40 you are mostly seeing deaths, unless there is some net out-migration.

For the 5-year age groups, the difference column compares the group vs. the same group five years earlier when they were 5 years younger, and divides by 25 (5-year group over five years) to calculate an average per year for a one-year group. This makes the number for the 85-89 group somewhat comparable to that for 84 one-year group. It does spread some deaths around but is OK for seeing trends.

In the first column for each year, in Row 92 is the mean age, which increased at relentlessly even pace over the 30 years, as a remarkably steady number of births has occurred since WWII (a period of 45 years by 1990, now extended to 75 years by 1990).

In the second column for each year, there is the estimate number of deaths for those over 40 (actually the net change in population), the mean age of death, number of deaths by five-year groups 50 or over, and deaths from 50-79, and 80+.  The important thing to not is that the most deaths occur in the 80s.

In France, the drop in births was much greater during WWI, as potential fathers were being slaughtered. The drop in births was less during WWI since France was largely out of the fighting early, and there had been a decline since the early 30s due to the depression.

The drops during the world wars is easier to see when looking horizontally, as opposed to vertically. When you look vertically, you are comparing persons of different ages in the same year. But larger numbers of older persons have died.

For example, in 1990, there were more people living who were 66 (born in 1924) than were 49 (born in 1941, the WWII minimum). By 2000, when they were 76 and 59, those born in 1941 were 18% more numerous.

In 2005, when they were 64 and 81, those born in 1941 were 38% more numerous, and the older generation was dying off much faster (about 16,000 per year vs. 4,000 per year). By 2008, when they 67 and 84, the younger group was 62% larger. By 2019, the 1941 generation, now 78, will be twice as numerous as the five-year cohort born from 1920 to 1924 (95-99). And the older group will still be dying in higher numbers.

When you look horizontally, you are comparing persons of the same age, in different years. Increases in life expectancy will favor those born at later date, but the increase is measured in fractions of a year of longevity.

For example, in 2000, 1.8% of 70 YO died in the previous year. But 4.9% of those who were 80 died. But if we look at 2010, 1.2% of those who were 70 YO had died.

Both your birth year and age have an effect on your chances of dying, but age is much more significant.

If we look at 76 YO in 1990, who were born in 1914, there 376K. By 1993, this number had dipped to 210K (born in 1917), and by 1996 had rebounded to 367K, and by 1997 (born in 1921) was 452K The number of births in 1917 was about 40% less than the number in 1914 or 1920. Comparing those born in 1917 to those born in 1921 there was a 115% uptick.

If we compare those born in 1941, the low year during WWII, to 1948 the peak year of the baby boom the increase was only 62%. Births had been slowly declining from 1931 onward, likely due to the depression, plus the low numbers from WWI reaching adulthood and parenting age.

WWI was a chasm. WWII was a swale with a small bluff on the post-war side.

From 1995 to 2000 the number of deaths increased slightly from 518K to 527K, and then dropped to 495K by 2007, as the smaller WWI generation passed through their 80's (80-84 in 2000, 87-91 in 2007).

Since 2007 deaths have been increasing and will reach 610K by 2020. The rate of increase was somewhat slow at first, and then reached a peak and has begun to decline. The initial increase was almost entirely due to the post-WWI group reaching their 80s and 90s, and replacing those born in WWI. By 2020, the WWI group will be over 100 and the post-WWI group in their late 90s. With only 200K left of those born from after WWI there won't be much increase from them, so the increase in deaths will slow.

There will be a small increase as the early baby-boomers replace those born in the Depression and WWII, but this won't begin to show up until after 2025.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 05:03:12 AM »

New York State had an abnormally high increase in deaths between Jan.-June 2015:

1st half of 2015: 104.510 deaths

1st half of 2014:   75.763 deaths

That's an increase of 38% (!!!) - Even Germany had "only" an increase of 10%.

All other states had way more moderate increases of 1-10%, which is in line with the European data I posted above.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/provisional_tables/Provisional_Table02_2015Jun.pdf
If you check the monthly results here:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/nvsr/monthly_provisional_notice.htm

You will see that there was a major step in January 2015.

Compared to the same month, previous year the increase beginning in January 2015 was 44%, 41%, 37%, 34%, 36%, 35%.

The number of deaths had been declining in New York from say 1996 to 2006 likely due to a continuing decline in the death rate, and baby boomers not yet reaching the high death ages (80+)

from 2004 to 2013 the number of deaths was fairly stable (from between 146,432 and 152,681), this is only a 4.3% variation, minimum to maximum.

It is possible that this is a very shallow valley as an aging population is catching up with a declining age-dependent death rate (eg the death rate for 80 YO in 2013, is lower than for 80 YO in 2003, but a larger share of the population is 80 in 2013). The peak years were on the end (2004, 2005, and 2013), the mnimums were in 2009 and 2010.

2014 was less deadly than 2013, particularly in the beginning of the year. January 2013 was particularly deadly. Even though January 2014 had the most deaths of any month in 2014, it was down 11% from January 2013. I suspect you will find that January 2013 was colder or there was an influenza uptick. Cold weather stresses frail older people enough that they die.

So January 2014, while a deadly month as far as 2014 goes, may have been relatively healthy as far as January's go. This makes that 44% increase for January 2014-January 2015 somewhat overstated. The year-over-year increases for March to June are around 35%.

https://health.data.ny.gov/Health/Vital-Statistics-Deaths-by-Resident-County-Region-/v6zf-ydez

If you go back several years, the ratio of deaths of NYS+NYC to NYS is a very steady 35%.

You would expect the ratio of deaths in NYC to the remainder of the state to be more consistent over time, than the year to year number of deaths, the weather changes from month to month, more than the distribution of the population - not that many people summer in the Hamptons or Catskills.

I think NYC is being double counted.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2016, 02:56:03 PM »

New York State had an abnormally high increase in deaths between Jan.-June 2015:

1st half of 2015: 104.510 deaths

1st half of 2014:   75.763 deaths

That's an increase of 38% (!!!) - Even Germany had "only" an increase of 10%.

All other states had way more moderate increases of 1-10%, which is in line with the European data I posted above.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/provisional_tables/Provisional_Table02_2015Jun.pdf
I received a response to my inquiry from the NCHS

Here are corrected values for NYS for 2015(the online version should be updated in a few days):

Monthly Count Year-to-date Count

January 14,831 14,831
February 12,890 27,721
March 13,363 41,084
April 12,637 53,721
May 12,291 66,012
June 11,595 77,607

That is a 2.4% increase.
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