Obama Releases Trans Pacific Partnership Deal Details; Congress Prepares For Deb
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  Obama Releases Trans Pacific Partnership Deal Details; Congress Prepares For Deb
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Author Topic: Obama Releases Trans Pacific Partnership Deal Details; Congress Prepares For Deb  (Read 8734 times)
bertramhall
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« on: November 05, 2015, 04:52:19 PM »

http://butthis.com/news/obama-releases-trans-pacific-partnership-deal-details-congress-prepares-for-debate

Obama has realized too many controversial reforms. Do we need the TPP? I highly doubt.
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Ebowed
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2015, 04:33:38 AM »

My concerns remain the same.  Expecting signatories to adopt draconian US copyright terms would have serious consequences.  For example, adhering to US patents will impede the manufacture and distribution of generic pharmaceuticals, forcing people to pay more for medicine when they may not be able to afford it.  The fact that a provision was inserted to specifically prohibit tobacco companies from suing governments from impeding on their profits underscores the fact that other corporations could benefit from this agreement.

This isn't just about trade.  After all, we already have existing free trade agreements with these countries, and I think the misconstruction of it is a deliberate one.
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jfern
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2015, 05:27:44 AM »

I regret voting for this crazy neoliberal President.
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The_Doctor
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2015, 01:08:41 PM »

In the long run, the TPP is a beneficial deal. It is another step towards the standardization of trade globally and reduces tariffs and barriers to entry. Not all things are great (I don't like the pharma stuff, which I agree is terrible) but on balance, reducing the tariffs and going another step towards a true global common market makes the TPP worthwhile. The tariffs are slashed across many industries, which will generate wealth for both TPP nations and the United States.

Eventually, all tariffs, subsidies and support for domestic industries, taxes on imports, and quotas should be abolished on a global basis. There should be a global standard for certain things (one tax collected globally, instead of double taxation for businesses that do business across countries) and so on. The TPP is not perfect in the details but it's a step towards that ideal.
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Extrabase500
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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2015, 02:00:16 PM »

TPP is a HORRIBLE deal for American workers. Remember Al Gore went up their and told you NAFTA would be fine in the debate with Ross Perot? Well LOOK how that turned out. TPP is insane and takes away Americas sovereignty and hurts the rights of our workers.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2015, 02:14:09 PM »

Basically a deal like this is going to be hashed out soon, and it's better the relatively good USA writes the rules rather than the mercantalists of China.
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The_Doctor
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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2015, 02:14:52 PM »

TPP is a HORRIBLE deal for American workers. Remember Al Gore went up their and told you NAFTA would be fine in the debate with Ross Perot? Well LOOK how that turned out. TPP is insane and takes away Americas sovereignty and hurts the rights of our workers.

"Sovereignty" is a nice phrase. But in the context of a globalized market, we need to create international standards that everyone will adhere to successfully participate in the global market. Hence WTO, GATT, NAFTA, etc. That's the whole purpose, to create a common set of rules for everyone to benefit from. That's why TPP is essential to the long term economic health of the planet. As globalization becomes a bigger and bigger deal, we need to acknowledge that nations cannot interact and operate in isolation.

I agree with preserving American sovereignty but at the same time, we need international trade standards, international labor standards, international standards on taxes, and so on. To demand that each nation set its own policies as far as interaction with the global market is asking for economic slowdown.

As far as trade deals go, American workers have benefited from genuine free trade deals in the long run. There has been damage to the unskilled sector, but really, I think that the big mismatch is that we aren't training our workforce to become skilled workers in the knowledge economy. In a nutshell, we are not supposed to be a nation of factory workers, we're supposed to be a nation of scientists, engineers, focusing on providing services, and a nation that generates economic outputs through technological innovation, service production, etc.

Eventually, and this is the reality, factory and farm production will be increasingly automated. That's going to create a huge jobs crunch in the future, as the requirements for our population will drastically dwindle. In the long run, this isn't a bad thing - history has shown that as we automate menial tasks, we free ourselves up for a better living standard. The screaming over factory workers losing their jobs is understandable, but in the long run, their kids will be better off with more knowledge-based jobs.
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2015, 02:40:39 PM »


Classic "'Obama is far right', 'Obama is far left'" exchange. Sad world we're living in when Greatness is not recognized by the masses.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2015, 02:49:21 PM »


Classic "'Obama is far right', 'Obama is far left'" exchange. Sad world we're living in when Greatness is not recognized by the masses.

Clearly Obama is a tyrannical far-centrist, ruthlessly imposing his moderate opinions on the innocent communists and fascists of America alike.
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The Other Castro
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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2015, 03:31:46 PM »


Classic "'Obama is far right', 'Obama is far left'" exchange. Sad world we're living in when Greatness is not recognized by the masses.

Clearly Obama is a tyrannical far-centrist, ruthlessly imposing his moderate opinions on the innocent communists and fascists of America alike.

His milquetoast is both sour and burnt.
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Extrabase500
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2015, 03:52:18 AM »

TPP is a HORRIBLE deal for American workers. Remember Al Gore went up their and told you NAFTA would be fine in the debate with Ross Perot? Well LOOK how that turned out. TPP is insane and takes away Americas sovereignty and hurts the rights of our workers.

"Sovereignty" is a nice phrase. But in the context of a globalized market, we need to create international standards that everyone will adhere to successfully participate in the global market. Hence WTO, GATT, NAFTA, etc. That's the whole purpose, to create a common set of rules for everyone to benefit from. That's why TPP is essential to the long term economic health of the planet. As globalization becomes a bigger and bigger deal, we need to acknowledge that nations cannot interact and operate in isolation.

I agree with preserving American sovereignty but at the same time, we need international trade standards, international labor standards, international standards on taxes, and so on. To demand that each nation set its own policies as far as interaction with the global market is asking for economic slowdown.

As far as trade deals go, American workers have benefited from genuine free trade deals in the long run. There has been damage to the unskilled sector, but really, I think that the big mismatch is that we aren't training our workforce to become skilled workers in the knowledge economy. In a nutshell, we are not supposed to be a nation of factory workers, we're supposed to be a nation of scientists, engineers, focusing on providing services, and a nation that generates economic outputs through technological innovation, service production, etc.

Eventually, and this is the reality, factory and farm production will be increasingly automated. That's going to create a huge jobs crunch in the future, as the requirements for our population will drastically dwindle. In the long run, this isn't a bad thing - history has shown that as we automate menial tasks, we free ourselves up for a better living standard. The screaming over factory workers losing their jobs is understandable, but in the long run, their kids will be better off with more knowledge-based jobs.

Well I would like to say thank you for taking the time to respond to me and providing a in-depth response of your opinions. Im surprised that your supportive of free trade given your username involves Calvin Coolidge who was a protectionist.

But heres the deal. The first thing is these trade agreements (NAFTA, CAFTA) etc have destroyed our manufacturing base. They've sent good jobs overseas to Mexico, China, etc we've gotten nothing back. I know this I know people who've lost good paying jobs. The second thing is free trade is a myth, its selling out the American people for despotisms in China and elsewhere and were they refuse to acknowledge and abied by our union rights, our worker rights, and our rights of association. Through these trade agreements we allow slave labor goods to come in which are extremely cheap, and in the end the American people are stuck paying the bill through Chinas tariffs (and the tariffs of other countries) well we get nothing back! Thats the defenition of a screw job to the American working class, small and medium business owners, and the american people. Look at the countries included in the deal such as Malaysia, they lierally have slave labor yet were supposed to have the same economy and same production? Thats why I strongly disagree with the notion that we have to have a internationalized and globalized economy and government.

Also the TPP environmental regulations result in us doing business with countries that have literally no environmental protection. Thats not a fair deal at all, and all this just for a few corporate elites to make profit at the expense of the American people. If we do trade deals it should be nation by nation, not several countries at once. The WTO is also terrible as it pushes us into not a one world economy ruled by special interests, and has done nothing for America as we have no tariffs yet China, etc have massive ones. The future of these agreements is also global government, which is even admitted.

Look at how the European union was started through a trade deal. The EU has been horrible and these trade deals will eventually lead to that conclusion (actually they already are look at the merger of our economy and mexicos and the border being wide open!) were our soverigntry is shreded.

The future of America is were it always has been and thats in manufacturing, entrepreneurship, innovation, and industry. To sell out our workers for the hope of a better future is ridiculous, not to mention the fact that most of the TPP is private and involves corporate "tribunals". What this deal is, the TPP is like all other recent "free trade" deals a big F you to the American people.
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Intell
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2015, 05:48:29 AM »

The idea that a bill written for global mulch-national corporations is any good for the workers is ridiculous. This along, with other free trade bills such as NAFTA hurt the backs of the working class both in Mexico and the US and only benefit the rich and the corporations. These bills also leads to a more globalized world, not for the workers or the people and communal friendship and peace but for the exploitation of the common man for the 'profit' of private business as well as the destruction of american industry and labour.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2015, 09:12:24 AM »


Classic "'Obama is far right', 'Obama is far left'" exchange. Sad world we're living in when Greatness is not recognized by the masses.

This is why so many of us support President Obama: he's stood up to both the fascist teabaggers and the loony true leftists.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2015, 11:04:20 AM »

How on earth is this deal bad for American workers?  It makes America more competitive, it will raise our GDP and it lowers foreign tariffs on US exports more than US tariffs on foreign imports. 

Trade is not a right wing/left wing issue.  Protectionist sentiment seems to appeal to both far-right populists and far-left populists, none of whom seem to have studied the issues.  Some people want easy answers, like blaming NAFTA for the macro economic and political trends of the 20th century.  I'm glad Obama can see past the knee-jerk rhetoric and support a trade deal that will make America better off.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2015, 11:15:03 AM »

The idea that a bill written for global mulch-national corporations is any good for the workers is ridiculous. This along, with other free trade bills such as NAFTA hurt the backs of the working class both in Mexico and the US and only benefit the rich and the corporations. These bills also leads to a more globalized world, not for the workers or the people and communal friendship and peace but for the exploitation of the common man for the 'profit' of private business as well as the destruction of american industry and labour.

Unless you're talking about the farmers who were ruined by NaFTA not going far enough, the idea that the working-class in Mexico were hurt by NAFTA is ridiculous.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2015, 11:38:55 AM »

Yeah, why are people against NAFTA? I truly don't understand that.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2015, 12:40:44 PM »

TPP is a HORRIBLE deal for American workers. Remember Al Gore went up their and told you NAFTA would be fine in the debate with Ross Perot? Well LOOK how that turned out.

Seems like it turned out pretty well to me?

The idea that a bill written for global mulch-national corporations is any good for the workers is ridiculous. This along, with other free trade bills such as NAFTA hurt the backs of the working class both in Mexico and the US and only benefit the rich and the corporations. These bills also leads to a more globalized world, not for the workers or the people and communal friendship and peace but for the exploitation of the common man for the 'profit' of private business as well as the destruction of american industry and labour.

That's cool rhetoric but you have quite literally zero evidence for any of this.

God bless President Obama for taking a stand against the impervious-to-reality leftist Tea Party.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2015, 12:48:25 PM »

This is a bunch of meaningless slogans strung together in no coherent order.

But heres the deal. The first thing is these trade agreements (NAFTA, CAFTA) etc have destroyed our manufacturing base. They've sent good jobs overseas to Mexico, China, etc we've gotten nothing back.

There's no sea separating Mexico and the US!



Your point is nonsense of course, but even if the US "manufacturing base" was destroyed, so what? Sure some people will hurt in the short term, but why weep over the decline of a politically well-connected industry when the net benefit for everyone else is greater? As an economist would tell you, trade is a Kaldor-Hicks improvement, not a Pareto one.

Look at the countries included in the deal such as Malaysia, they lierally have slave labor yet were supposed to have the same economy and same production? Thats why I strongly disagree with the notion that we have to have a internationalized and globalized economy and government.

I don't know what this means. The entire reason trade makes sense is precisely because you don't have the "same economy and same production".

Also the TPP environmental regulations result in us doing business with countries that have literally no environmental protection. Thats not a fair deal at all, and all this just for a few corporate elites to make profit at the expense of the American people. If we do trade deals it should be nation by nation, not several countries at once. The WTO is also terrible as it pushes us into not a one world economy ruled by special interests, and has done nothing for America as we have no tariffs yet China, etc have massive ones. The future of these agreements is also global government, which is even admitted.

Look at how the European union was started through a trade deal. The EU has been horrible and these trade deals will eventually lead to that conclusion (actually they already are look at the merger of our economy and mexicos and the border being wide open!) were our soverigntry is shreded.


lol lay off the Alex Jones.

The future of America is were it always has been and thats in manufacturing, entrepreneurship, innovation, and industry. To sell out our workers for the hope of a better future is ridiculous, not to mention the fact that most of the TPP is private and involves corporate "tribunals". What this deal is, the TPP is like all other recent "free trade" deals a big F you to the American people.

One would imagine the future of America is indeed in innovation and industry, which is why trade agreements are a good thing. "Most of TPP is private"? What does this mean? And, as has been mentioned time and time again, the "corporate tribunals" [sic] are a part of almost every free trade agreement and are a perfectly good idea.

Please attempt to elaborate on these points because most of them are unclear.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2015, 01:18:22 PM »

Yeah, why are people against NAFTA? I truly don't understand that.

The most solid ground to attack it is the Mexican farmer suicides. Which is a direct responsibility of the protectionism the U.S. encourages with its outrageous corn farm subsidies. (And yes, I know the EU is just as much a villain in this respect)

Luckily, the TPP seems to undercut the Japanese corporate agribusiness a bit, which is very good because they are a terrible racket and quite surprising seeing as the LDP are in power at the moment.


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Simfan34
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« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2015, 05:30:36 PM »

Yeah, why are people against NAFTA? I truly don't understand that.

The most solid ground to attack it is the Mexican farmer suicides. Which is a direct responsibility of the protectionism the U.S. encourages with its outrageous corn farm subsidies. (And yes, I know the EU is just as much a villain in this respect)

Luckily, the TPP seems to undercut the Japanese corporate agribusiness a bit, which is very good because they are a terrible racket and quite surprising seeing as the LDP are in power at the moment.




Well that's grounds to accuse NAFTA of providing for insufficiently free trade, not the opposite.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2015, 05:59:24 PM »

Yeah, why are people against NAFTA? I truly don't understand that.

The most solid ground to attack it is the Mexican farmer suicides. Which is a direct responsibility of the protectionism the U.S. encourages with its outrageous corn farm subsidies. (And yes, I know the EU is just as much a villain in this respect)

Luckily, the TPP seems to undercut the Japanese corporate agribusiness a bit, which is very good because they are a terrible racket and quite surprising seeing as the LDP are in power at the moment.




Well that's grounds to accuse NAFTA of providing for insufficiently free trade, not the opposite.

I've actually seen people on the right who, at least theoretically, support free trade but oppose NAFTA for that very reason.
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Ebsy
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« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2015, 07:48:51 PM »

Still literally no one has any coherent argument as to why the details of this deal are bad for the US economy.
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Clarko95 📚💰📈
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« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2015, 08:15:01 PM »

The idea that a bill written for global mulch-national corporations is any good for the workers is ridiculous. This along, with other free trade bills such as NAFTA hurt the backs of the working class both in Mexico and the US and only benefit the rich and the corporations. These bills also leads to a more globalized world, not for the workers or the people and communal friendship and peace but for the exploitation of the common man for the 'profit' of private business as well as the destruction of american industry and labour.

Unless you're talking about the farmers who were ruined by NaFTA not going far enough, the idea that the working-class in Mexico were hurt by NAFTA is ridiculous.

You could argue that the working class in Mexico gained some in economic benefits and lost some in quality of life, as the displacement of poorer farmers to the cities caused a surge in unemployment, housing issues, petty crime, organized prostitution, and was a contributor to the flow of illegal immigrants to the U.S., who pay gang-affiliated coyotes to bring them across the border (thus, financing crime).

Something like 15% - 20% of Mexicos beef products are sold by a group of subsidiaries of an American company based in Virginia(?), and considering how sh_tty America's food products are, that's also a health concern if meat is processed the same there it is here.

The trade debate isn't just about economics.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2015, 09:44:47 PM »

I saw "Re: Obama Releases Trans..." and seriously thought that maybe he'd released his transcripts.
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Extrabase500
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« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2015, 10:31:05 PM »
« Edited: November 09, 2015, 10:35:45 PM by Extrabase500 »

The idea that a bill written for global mulch-national corporations is any good for the workers is ridiculous. This along, with other free trade bills such as NAFTA hurt the backs of the working class both in Mexico and the US and only benefit the rich and the corporations. These bills also leads to a more globalized world, not for the workers or the people and communal friendship and peace but for the exploitation of the common man for the 'profit' of private business as well as the destruction of american industry and labour.

Agreed theirs no argument for these "free trade" deals.

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Idk what fantasy land your living in.

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Yeah massive trade deficits, increased illegal immigration, sovereignty lost the push towards merging us with mexico, those are all GREAT things! Which economists Paul Krugman lol hes a total joke. How is allowing private tribunals to make decisions over sovereign governments good? theirs no argument for free trade being good lol unless your a multi national corporation or a government bureaucrat.



http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-12-30/nafta-20-years-after-neither-miracle-nor-disaster

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Yeah "trade" agreements do none of that. Please post the full agreement of TPP, oh wait you can't because its SECRET. If its so amazing why not release the full details. Its a joke.

Is that all you got is calling me alex jones. really thats all I hear from globalist/open border fanatics/free trade supporters. whats next you gona call me racist lol.


Classic "'Obama is far right', 'Obama is far left'" exchange. Sad world we're living in when Greatness is not recognized by the masses.

This is why so many of us support President Obama: he's stood up to both the fascist teabaggers and the loony true leftists.

Obama is the worst president ever, and if the GOP has any sense they'll vote to impeach this bum who should have never held office in the first place. Everything he's done/tried has been horrible you didin't build that, tax increases, obamacare, gun control, anti-cop, racial tensions, amnesty, secret global "free trade" agreements, open borders, and complete disregard for the american people.

Obama is a complete clown and a joke.
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