Obama Releases Trans Pacific Partnership Deal Details; Congress Prepares For Deb

[Extrabase500]

TPP is a HORRIBLE deal for American workers. Remember Al Gore went up their and told you NAFTA would be fine in the debate with Ross Perot? Well LOOK how that turned out. TPP is insane and takes away Americas sovereignty and hurts the rights of our workers.

[Extrabase500]

TPP is a HORRIBLE deal for American workers. Remember Al Gore went up their and told you NAFTA would be fine in the debate with Ross Perot? Well LOOK how that turned out. TPP is insane and takes away Americas sovereignty and hurts the rights of our workers.

"Sovereignty" is a nice phrase. But in the context of a globalized market, we need to create international standards that everyone will adhere to successfully participate in the global market. Hence WTO, GATT, NAFTA, etc. That's the whole purpose, to create a common set of rules for everyone to benefit from. That's why TPP is essential to the long term economic health of the planet. As globalization becomes a bigger and bigger deal, we need to acknowledge that nations cannot interact and operate in isolation.

I agree with preserving American sovereignty but at the same time, we need international trade standards, international labor standards, international standards on taxes, and so on. To demand that each nation set its own policies as far as interaction with the global market is asking for economic slowdown.

As far as trade deals go, American workers have benefited from genuine free trade deals in the long run. There has been damage to the unskilled sector, but really, I think that the big mismatch is that we aren't training our workforce to become skilled workers in the knowledge economy. In a nutshell, we are not supposed to be a nation of factory workers, we're supposed to be a nation of scientists, engineers, focusing on providing services, and a nation that generates economic outputs through technological innovation, service production, etc.

Eventually, and this is the reality, factory and farm production will be increasingly automated. That's going to create a huge jobs crunch in the future, as the requirements for our population will drastically dwindle. In the long run, this isn't a bad thing - history has shown that as we automate menial tasks, we free ourselves up for a better living standard. The screaming over factory workers losing their jobs is understandable, but in the long run, their kids will be better off with more knowledge-based jobs.

Well I would like to say thank you for taking the time to respond to me and providing a in-depth response of your opinions. Im surprised that your supportive of free trade given your username involves Calvin Coolidge who was a protectionist.

But heres the deal. The first thing is these trade agreements (NAFTA, CAFTA) etc have destroyed our manufacturing base. They've sent good jobs overseas to Mexico, China, etc we've gotten nothing back. I know this I know people who've lost good paying jobs. The second thing is free trade is a myth, its selling out the American people for despotisms in China and elsewhere and were they refuse to acknowledge and abied by our union rights, our worker rights, and our rights of association. Through these trade agreements we allow slave labor goods to come in which are extremely cheap, and in the end the American people are stuck paying the bill through Chinas tariffs (and the tariffs of other countries) well we get nothing back! Thats the defenition of a screw job to the American working class, small and medium business owners, and the american people. Look at the countries included in the deal such as Malaysia, they lierally have slave labor yet were supposed to have the same economy and same production? Thats why I strongly disagree with the notion that we have to have a internationalized and globalized economy and government.

Also the TPP environmental regulations result in us doing business with countries that have literally no environmental protection. Thats not a fair deal at all, and all this just for a few corporate elites to make profit at the expense of the American people. If we do trade deals it should be nation by nation, not several countries at once. The WTO is also terrible as it pushes us into not a one world economy ruled by special interests, and has done nothing for America as we have no tariffs yet China, etc have massive ones. The future of these agreements is also global government, which is even admitted.

Look at how the European union was started through a trade deal. The EU has been horrible and these trade deals will eventually lead to that conclusion (actually they already are look at the merger of our economy and mexicos and the border being wide open!) were our soverigntry is shreded.

The future of America is were it always has been and thats in manufacturing, entrepreneurship, innovation, and industry. To sell out our workers for the hope of a better future is ridiculous, not to mention the fact that most of the TPP is private and involves corporate "tribunals". What this deal is, the TPP is like all other recent "free trade" deals a big F you to the American people.

[Extrabase500]

The idea that a bill written for global mulch-national corporations is any good for the workers is ridiculous. This along, with other free trade bills such as NAFTA hurt the backs of the working class both in Mexico and the US and only benefit the rich and the corporations. These bills also leads to a more globalized world, not for the workers or the people and communal friendship and peace but for the exploitation of the common man for the 'profit' of private business as well as the destruction of american industry and labour.

Agreed theirs no argument for these "free trade" deals.

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Idk what fantasy land your living in.

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Yeah massive trade deficits, increased illegal immigration, sovereignty lost the push towards merging us with mexico, those are all GREAT things! Which economists Paul Krugman lol hes a total joke. How is allowing private tribunals to make decisions over sovereign governments good? theirs no argument for free trade being good lol unless your a multi national corporation or a government bureaucrat.



http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-12-30/nafta-20-years-after-neither-miracle-nor-disaster

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Yeah "trade" agreements do none of that. Please post the full agreement of TPP, oh wait you can't because its SECRET. If its so amazing why not release the full details. Its a joke.

Is that all you got is calling me alex jones. really thats all I hear from globalist/open border fanatics/free trade supporters. whats next you gona call me racist lol.

I regret voting for this crazy neoliberal President.

ouch

Classic "'Obama is far right', 'Obama is far left'" exchange. Sad world we're living in when Greatness is not recognized by the masses.

This is why so many of us support President Obama: he's stood up to both the fascist teabaggers and the loony true leftists.

Obama is the worst president ever, and if the GOP has any sense they'll vote to impeach this bum who should have never held office in the first place. Everything he's done/tried has been horrible you didin't build that, tax increases, obamacare, gun control, anti-cop, racial tensions, amnesty, secret global "free trade" agreements, open borders, and complete disregard for the american people.

Obama is a complete clown and a joke.

[Extrabase500]

I'm not going to condemn the deal based on limited information, but I'm not about to embrace it, either. I still don't have a good understanding of its implications in anything but the broadest strokes and, judging from the analysis that I've read since its release, no one who is in a position to publish their commentary does either - yet, at least.

What is clear is that the politics of the agreement are toxic, and in a way that cuts across party coalitions in the United States. It'll be interesting to watch how the deal's proponents try to answer the opposition: Will there be a real effort to mobilize political support, or will opposition remain narrow enough that the agreement can pass quietly in most countries without legislators who vote in favor facing negative electoral consequences?

I agree.  Nobody seems to have an extremely informed opinion on either side of this issue.  One side is more misinformed, the protectionist side, but nobody seems to really understand the nuances of this issue. 

But, if we're having a debate about trade barriers, it seems to me that the burden of proof should be on the protectionists.  Free trade ought be the basic default rule.

Free trade is the biggest myth. Its not free trade.

[Extrabase500]

I'm not going to condemn the deal based on limited information, but I'm not about to embrace it, either. I still don't have a good understanding of its implications in anything but the broadest strokes and, judging from the analysis that I've read since its release, no one who is in a position to publish their commentary does either - yet, at least.

What is clear is that the politics of the agreement are toxic, and in a way that cuts across party coalitions in the United States. It'll be interesting to watch how the deal's proponents try to answer the opposition: Will there be a real effort to mobilize political support, or will opposition remain narrow enough that the agreement can pass quietly in most countries without legislators who vote in favor facing negative electoral consequences?

I agree.  Nobody seems to have an extremely informed opinion on either side of this issue.  One side is more misinformed, the protectionist side, but nobody seems to really understand the nuances of this issue. 

But, if we're having a debate about trade barriers, it seems to me that the burden of proof should be on the protectionists.  Free trade ought be the basic default rule.

Free trade is the biggest myth. Its not free trade.

And the worst parts about TPP aren't even about trade.

Exacley it's a giant global corporate scam against American working people. "Obama" and the Republican Blue Bloods like Bohner Ryan and McCain are traitors to the Republic. They sold American working people out to giant predator corporations.

[Extrabase500]

I'm not going to condemn the deal based on limited information, but I'm not about to embrace it, either. I still don't have a good understanding of its implications in anything but the broadest strokes and, judging from the analysis that I've read since its release, no one who is in a position to publish their commentary does either - yet, at least.

What is clear is that the politics of the agreement are toxic, and in a way that cuts across party coalitions in the United States. It'll be interesting to watch how the deal's proponents try to answer the opposition: Will there be a real effort to mobilize political support, or will opposition remain narrow enough that the agreement can pass quietly in most countries without legislators who vote in favor facing negative electoral consequences?

I agree.  Nobody seems to have an extremely informed opinion on either side of this issue.  One side is more misinformed, the protectionist side, but nobody seems to really understand the nuances of this issue.  

But, if we're having a debate about trade barriers, it seems to me that the burden of proof should be on the protectionists.  Free trade ought be the basic default rule.

Free trade is the biggest myth. Its not free trade.

And the worst parts about TPP aren't even about trade.

Exacley it's a giant global corporate scam against American working people. "Obama" and the Republican Blue Bloods like Bohner Ryan and McCain are traitors to the Republic. They sold American working people out to giant predator corporations.

Sometimes it's kind of surprising when I realize I agree so much with a Republican on an issue. But then I remember it's the establishment of both parties to blame for stuff like TPP.

Agreed you see the legitimate left/grassroots left and the tea party opposing the TPP well the establishment of both parties support it.

The TPP is just a giant joke and scam that destroys our sovereignty and is a giant screw you to working people of America. Their is no reason to support this joke of a "free trade" deal! Also free trade is just a myth to all of these deals they sign us on to suck and only benift elite corporate interests.

[Extrabase500]

To respond to your assertions …

(1) Trade has “destroyed our manufacturing base” in the context that low paying jobs went overseas, while the United States and other developed post-industrial nations transitioned to service jobs and jobs that paid better wages (white collar, high tech factory jobs, et al).

From the Brookings Institute:

“As an employer and source of economic activity the advanced industry sector plays a major role in the U.S. economy. As of 2013, the nation’s 50 advanced industries (see nearby box for selection criteria) employed 12.3 million U.S. workers. That amounts to about 9 percent of total U.S. employment. And yet, even with this modest employment base, U.S. advanced industries produce $2.7 trillion in value added annually—17 percent of all U.S. gross domestic product (GDP). That is more than any other sector, including healthcare, finance, or real estate.
At the same time, the sector employs 80 percent of the nation’s engineers; performs 90 percent of private-sector R&D; generates approximately 85 percent of all U.S. patents; and accounts for 60 percent of U.S. exports. Advanced industries also support unusually extensive supply chains and other forms of ancillary economic activity. On a per worker basis, advanced industries purchase $236,000 in goods and services from other businesses annually, compared with $67,000 in purchasing by other industries. This spending sustains and creates more jobs. In fact, 2.2 jobs are created domestically for every new advanced industry job—0.8 locally and 1.4 outside of the region. This means that in addition to the 12.3 million workers employed by advanced industries, another 27.1 million U.S. workers owe their jobs to economic activity supported by advanced industries. Directly and indirectly, then, the sector supports almost 39 million jobs—nearly one-fourth of all U.S. employment.”

(2) That’s the type of jobs we have now, and that’s not something to mourn, it’s something to celebrate. Fair trade advocates mourn the loss of jobs that require a great deal of menial labor but in the first place, why should they? A lot of people point back to the 1950s, where blue collar jobs were plentiful, but we forget that in the 1950s, these jobs were cutting edge for that time. These jobs have gone over to India, China, and other third world nations that are developing their economies and that isn’t a bad thing either! In the context of a global economy, these nations will benefit from having these jobs on their own way to their own post-industrial jobs while we benefit from encouraging high tech jobs. In a real sense, this is one major reason to advocate for free trade.

To address your next assertion:

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(6)The thing is, this is a classic fair trade argument. One thing that is clear from the outset; when other nations attack us by employing fair trade tactics, that isn’t a condemnation of free trade. It’s a condemnation of fair trade distorting a good market outcome. If China makes it harder for us to compete in China because of their own fair trade policies, the remedy is to push China to break down barriers, not erect our own. These tariffs might hurt American companies expanding.

(7)As for “slave labor,” sure, these goods are cheaper (not always; as nations develop, the wages of these nations will rise, thus raising the costs of the goods, in question). But again, as I pointed out earlier, it’s still a win-win for both nations. Understand, the value of the dollar goes much further in India and Asia than here; so someone making $2 bucks a day might look impoverished to us (and it’s still a terrible wage) but it’s also a source of income that’s much higher than they would be otherwise getting.

(8)Americans on the other hand have a median income of some $53-55,000 (I can’t recall off the top of my head) with 5% unemployment, rising consumer spending, and so on, Americans are not necessarily suffering from free trade.

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(7) This is a massively liberal/economically isolationist argument. I’m going to tackle it because it summarizes so many liberal worldviews in one paragraphs.

The environmental standards argument is a fair one. It’s also something I don’t really honestly care about, because when you construct trade deals, I don’t really think that labor standards, environmental standards, et al should be part of said deal. What should be at the heart of the deal is lowering barriers to trade, ending tariffs, ending quotas, and making it as easy as possible for businesses to do transactions across country lines. Environmental standards and labor standards should be up to the host nation. And bear in mind: labor standards in Vietnam, China, India are conditional on the kind of economy they have, which means if they’re still developing, demanding them to have say, a living wage ignores the economy they have at that precise moment. Ditto environmental standards; compliance regulations would possibly be extremely difficult to stay in compliance with. Environmental regulations are not a bad thing but they cost money to implement, cost money to stick with, and they require the infrastructure and framework of a government and country that’s a lot more advanced than say, what some of these East Asian nations have.

In a nutshell, (1) I don’t care because as a free trader, I don’t believe these factors should be a factor (2) They’re difficult to comply with and getting barriers torn down and allowing mutual economic growth is the primary reason for having free trade deals (3) The compliance factor for these nations make it difficult to have these standards in the first place (3a) Without money from us, on the environmental factor side, it’s really hard for some third world nations to comply (4) Environmental and labor standards should be up to the nation to implement independent of the trade agreement, purely because they know best how to do that, based on the economy they have.

(3) The WTO, GATT, etc have been beneficial in terms of knitting the world economy together and trying to create a set of standards for the global economy. The reality is that we need organizations like these to set these standards. It’s very simple to illustrate why. If I have a wool sweater, and you have $50, and we live in separate nations, it’s helpful if we have standards to guarantee that you’ll get the wool sweater on time, that you pay me adequately, that the prices aren’t ridiculously inflated by tariffs or quotas, or what not, that your nation isn’t blocking the sale because it’s in a trade war with my nation, et al.

(4) To respond to other people in this thread, about free trade deals, I will illustrate a major problem I have with free trade deals. They don’t go far enough. A lot of them are political transactions, designed to lower tariffs and barriers, but carving out sweetheart deals for some industries, in order to elicit enough support within the home nation to pass. While that’s democracy, that’s also the big reason why we see the failures of the deal in question. NAFTA is a good deal on balance but its failures, to me, can be ascribed to that.

(5) The major failing of the TPP, far as I can see, is the fact that again, corporate capitalism is involved. While it does many good and great things (that make it ultimately worthy of my support), the failure is that it enshrines patent laws that are more akin to 15th century Elizabethan England (favoring select companies) rather than classical liberal economics (reforming them so that generics come onto the market faster, more easily, etc).  

(1) Thats not true http://www.newsweek.com/free-trade-costs-american-jobs-332962 http://smallbusiness.chron.com/negative-effects-trade-5221.html

(2) No they won't. You don't build up a country by sending good jobs away. Those jobs arint even working for China/India. You don't make a country great by shipping jobs away and destroying manufacturing.

(3) Thats exacley the problem with world economy. America gets screwed and were forced to lose good paying jobs and allow despotisms like China and elsewhere to ship CHEAP goods in that easily break down. Look at how high unemployement is. A world economy is simply one of the many steps by the elite to create a despotic new world order.

(4) They lower tariffs for America BUT NOT for other countries! Look at China they have a massive tariff on us how is that fair.

(5) The problem with TPP is its a giant corporatist scam and is written by multi national corporations. it throws American workers and American small/medium business owners under the bus, allows for the creation of PRIVATE corporate tribunals which overstep nations and government. Its a giant scam like most "free trade" agreements.

(6) These trade agreements do NOTHING to help even the third world. it just gives multi national corporations control over them and leads to the creation of global government by elite corporations/special interests/bureaucrats. Most Americans oppose "free trade" in both parties now.

(7) Environmental regulations are needed and deals should be ONE WAY agreements. Im not gona support tearing up the environment just so a few governments/elitsts/multi nationals can get rich.

( Tell that to all the Americans that have lost their jobs and the American working people that have been RIPPED OFF by these scams.