Bachmann: Jesus is coming soon, so we should convert all of the Jews

[Mr. Reactionary]

Given the historical reality of coercion, persecution and forced conversions, it is inappropriate for Christians (and for Muslims, btw) to try and convert Jews.

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Why is it ok to actively try and lead people away from their traditions? It is really the height of disrespect, especially considering the incredibly privileged position Christianity has in the US and in much of Europe (Israel is kind of a different situation of course).

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This mechanism, a mechanism of oppression and inequality, would be exactly the same as in Germany, 1850. Converting Jews means actively trying to spiritually destruct the Jewish people, which is the height of immorality.

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In principle I agree with you, and even if I consider it extremely immoral and disgusting I don't think it should be illegal to proselytize among Jews in the Western world, but Israel is kind of a different case. It is the only Jewish state and at least in Israel, Jews should be safe from attempts to spiritually destruct the Jewish people.

Wow DavidB, when did you become a progressive Tumblr SJW? Your arguments are that "Group A is special because Group B was once mean to it, so now Group A gets a special safe space where no one from Group B who disagrees is allowed to have any differing views." The peaceful, free exchange of ideas is not triggering, oppressive, or immoral.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

If Israel does away with freedom of religion, we might as well let Hamas take over.

😏 Even I, one of the more anti-Zionist posters here, think equating Israel with Hamas is silly.

Well if there was no Israel there would be no Hamas.  The disturbing comments made in this thread really illustrate why we continue to have a festering problem in that part of the world.

It is revolting that there are people out there who praise the manipulation of the first amendment to corrupt our political system with money while at the same time condemning the first amendment as "immoral" because it allows Jehovah's witnesses to knock on doors... while we all hide inside and pretend not to be home.  Famous Mortimer brings up a good point.  Why waste 12% of our foreign aid budget promoting restrictions on the first amendment?  If we were talking about restrictions on the 2nd amendment I could see.  But to suggest trampling on the First Amendment simply because a Jehovah's witness rang your doorbell is unhinged.  I don't see how a mind like that isn't as fanatical as Hamas... or worse.

[DavidB.]

Wow DavidB, when did you become a progressive Tumblr SJW? Your arguments are that "Group A is special because Group B was once mean to it, so now Group A gets a special safe space where no one from Group B who disagrees is allowed to have any differing views." The peaceful, free exchange of ideas is not triggering, oppressive, or immoral.

Paying attention to historical facts that still live on in people's minds and are very relevant to human interaction does not make one a "progressive Tumblr SJW". Do you use the N-word? If not, then you probably agree with me.

What you call a "free exchange of ideas" is obviously a one-way street, since Judaism does not actively proselytize. There is no "exchange" and there has never been an "exchange", there has only been a continuous attempt to lead Jews away from their traditions, and it is not any better if it's 21st-century-style sugarcoated than if it's 1492-style "convert or die". Israel is a country in which some people are very poor (sadly) and a country that lacks support for its existence. The first reason makes Israel vulnerable to proselytization efforts on a micro-level ("if you come to my church then we'll help you out") and the second reason makes the country vulnerable to accept this on a macro-level, because what will "the world" think? People who want to pressure Israel into not doing this are simply engaging in neocolonialism. Israel is a sovereign country and it has the full right to introduce laws that limit proselytization among Jews. (Funny, btw, that I haven't heard anything about the laws regarding converting Muslims in its neighboring countries -- double standards much?) People who don't understand the inherent problems with Christians engaging in proselytizing Jews are either clueless regarding the history of Christian oppression of Jews (which many older Jews, mind you, still remember from their past) or they simply do not care about Jews (or Israeli sovereignty). In both cases, the problem lies not with Israeli Jews.

By the way, I reiterate my belief that most Christians do not fall in any of these categories: most Christians support Israel yet do not feel the urge to convert us. I have quite some Christian friends who are pretty religious. They simply say: "Well, we'll see who was right if the Messiah comes". Sure, they'd probably like Jews to become Christians, but they are not engaging in proselytization and they respect our traditions, just as I respect theirs.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Yeah this idea that Christianity, in the American sense, is "tradition" is precisely what Americans don't get and why people convert more easily and why people scoff at the idea of "America being founded on Christian principles".

This isn't about your family or traditions.  It's about the salvation of your soul. 

[DavidB.]

As much as you think your faith trumps people's rights to their traditions, people still have these rights. A rapist would say: "Your worldview might place bodily integrity as of higher importance, but that is simply your moral weighting". Now obviously this comparison is not really a fair one, because most Christians who want to convert Jews do have the best intentions for these Jews whereas rapists generally do not care so much about the fate of their victims, but you probably understand my point: people have a right to their traditions, and this goes even more for people who have been oppressed for living according to these traditions in the past. In such cases, an "I do it my way and you do it your way" approach would be more appropriate.

You may not agree with the Christian faith, but please understand that evangelism is inherently a significant part of the Christian faith.

I do. But why, of all people, target Jews? Given the problematic history regarding coercive conversions and general oppression, one would say that if ever, moral Christians would "target" Jews only when all the other people had become Christians.

This isn't about your family or traditions.  It's about the salvation of your soul. 

For you it isn't, but that idea is something inherently Christian in and of itself, and you cannot (and should not) force others to feel the same.

[RFayette]

I completely agree people have a right to their traditions, and I don't think Christians should ever try to force people to convert, as was done in Europe to both pagans and Jews.  Conversion should absolutely be voluntary.  This is why your analogy to rape is silly, as Christians are simply speaking their mind, not forcing a conversion (though indeed encouraging one).

You have a fair point that missions work/proselytizing may be better served with non-Jewish people as opposed to the Jews given past occurrences, but I still see nothing wrong with presenting the Gospel to anyone, Jew or non-Jew.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

What you call a "free exchange of ideas" is obviously a one-way street, since Judaism does not actively proselytize. 

While that is true today for rabbinic Judaism, Judaism was once more accepting of conversion than it is today. Granted, it has always been easier to get female converts, but that's no excuse for adopting the attitude of the brothers of Dinah towards conversion.

[DavidB.]

While that is true today for rabbinic Judaism, Judaism was once more accepting of conversion than it is today. Granted, it has always been easier to get female converts, but that's no excuse for adopting the attitude of the brothers of Dinah towards conversion.

The first thing you say is obviously true. Regarding the last thing, we do not need an "excuse" to decide for ourselves who is part of the tribe and who is not, which is what the giyur process is about. Similarly, I don't get to say who can be considered Muslim or Hindu (and I have absolutely no intention to do so).

[Famous Mortimer]

Saying Christians shouldn't try to convert Jews because Jews generally don't try to convert people is like a liberal saying "We should ban guns for other people because I personally don't want one".

As long as there's no stopping Jews from trying to get converts, there's nothing wrong with Christians trying to do it.

No one is trying "force" anyone to do anything.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

You may not agree with the Christian faith, but please understand that evangelism is inherently a significant part of the Christian faith.

I do. But why, of all people, target Jews? Given the problematic history regarding coercive conversions and general oppression, one would say that if ever, moral Christians would "target" Jews only when all the other people had become Christians.

Christians don't specifically target Jews.  I'd imagine that Israel doesn't get that many missionaries compared to other parts of the world.

[DavidB.]

Christians don't specifically target Jews.  I'd imagine that Israel doesn't get that many missionaries compared to other parts of the world.

I know, but this entire debate was pretty hypothetical.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

We are supposed to believe Judaism is such a weak religion it can't put up with people who promote conversion to other religions?

[CatoMinor]

As everyone can agree, Bachmann is awful, but there is nothing wrong with what she said. Especially considering that Christianity was founded by the Jews who followed Jesus preaching to their own people first before reaching out to the gentiles.

[Maxwell]

Are we going to ignore the fact Bachmann basically said THE WORLD IS ENDING?

[DINGO Joe]

Are we going to ignore the fact Bachmann basically said THE WORLD IS ENDING?

This is the most annoying thing about Christianity.  There's always a certain segment that's  arrogant enough to be convinced we're in the endtimes.  Really, I even get aggravated saying the Lord's prayer sometimes.

[CatoMinor]

Are we going to ignore the fact Bachmann basically said THE WORLD IS ENDING?

This is the most annoying thing about Christianity.  There's always a certain segment that's  arrogant enough to be convinced we're in the endtimes.  Really, I even get aggravated saying the Lord's prayer sometimes.

Care to elaborate on that? (at the risk of this thread needing to be moved to a more appropriate board.)

[DINGO Joe]

Are we going to ignore the fact Bachmann basically said THE WORLD IS ENDING?

This is the most annoying thing about Christianity.  There's always a certain segment that's  arrogant enough to be convinced we're in the endtimes.  Really, I even get aggravated saying the Lord's prayer sometimes.

Care to elaborate on that? (at the risk of this thread needing to be moved to a more appropriate board.)

Millenialist get too excited about the "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as in Heaven" part.

[SATW]

I agree w/ DavidB's comments completely.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Are we going to ignore the fact Bachmann basically said THE WORLD IS ENDING?

it isn't at all surprising for someone of Bachmann's background.   the "End times" is in these contexts given a sufficiently vague meaning which does not necessarily preclude another century or two.