Slovenia referendum on teh gays, Dec 20th

[DavidB.]

Sigh. I hate referendums on this issue. Do the right thing, Slovenia.

[DavidB.]

Like Croatia did?

No, that was the wrong thing. I'd rather see Slovenia vote like Ireland did.

[DavidB.]

Yeah, I think Steelers is right: this will pass. What annoys me about these referendums is that same-sex marriage is subject to the decision of "the people". I don't believe in the concept of "rights", but in a proper liberal democracy (and Slovenia is a proper liberal democracy), the government treats all citizens equally, regardless of what a majority of the population want.

It seems especially wrong that this is still on the ballot even if parliament already approved same-sex marriage, thus considering marriage something that should be "distributed" equally without taking into account one's sexuality. It is an infringement upon the equal treatment of citizens, and the fact that this is on the ballot proves that the government (or, more precisely, the institutions that shape Slovenian democracy and its rule of law) isn't prepared to preserve equality for minorities. Frankly I think it is humiliating for LGB(T?)s to have their "equality" on the ballot, as if they are only worthy of equal treatment if a majority decides so. I have become more and more convinced that the judicial way in which same-sex marriage has been realized in the US has been the right way.

However, this is still better than nothing at all, and in 2016, Slovenia will likely have same-sex marriage -- as opposed to all of its neighbors, including Italy and Austria...

[DavidB.]

Yes I'm so liberal Also, it would be strange to hope for Poles voting for SSM in a referendum, but it isn't so strange to hope for SSM to pass in Slovenia (even if it eventually doesn't).

[DavidB.]

I think no will win, but without reaching the quorum.

[DavidB.]

52.3% for, 47.7% against. So it appears that in Slovenia, #lovewins

[DavidB.]

Oh, that was apparently not the final result. My Slovenian needs some improvement... It is now 59.3 against and 40.7 for. Well, the quorum to prevent SSM from being implemented won't be reached anyway.

[DavidB.]

Where do you get your results, David? Wikipedia and some Slovenian newspaper website linked from it have 52% for, 47% against.

Slovenian newspaper Delo. Apparently it has become even worse (61-39 against), but it is also clear that this result isn't final.

[DavidB.]

Well, as equal rights should not depend on the popular vote, I really have no problem with "no" winning the referendum yet not reaching the quorum, thus leading SSM to be introduced.

Why do you think it is unlikely for Maribor to vote against SSM heavily, Cranberry?

[DavidB.]

What equal rights? Homosexuals can enter marriage union like normal people.

You are not seriously arguing that because of the fact that gay people can marry someone of a different gender, there are equal rights, are you?

As for the introducing, why so? There is no quorum - there is no implementation. Govt. don't need such result to implement any changes if they support so called "SSM" and if they wanted to do that they would introduced that earlier, especially that Slovenia now have centre-left cabinet.

I don't understand what you mean. If there are not enough "no" voters, then SSM will automatically be introduced, because parliament already passed a law to do so. This referendum was triggered by people who wanted to prevent that, but if the "no" quorum is not reached, SSM will be introduced.

[DavidB.]

It is actually going to be close. 343k need to vote against in order to prevent SSM from being introduced; Delo now says 323k did so, and these are not yet the final results.

[DavidB.]

Yes, it seems that SSM won't be introduced because the quorum has been reached. Cranberry was right.

[DavidB.]

The most depressing thing about it is that it already was law, that people there already had equal rights, and now it's taken from them by some intolerant bigots. It is worse than just a normal referendum against SSM in that it is actually a step backwards.

I don't think that's true. It wasn't introduced yet, even if parliament had voted for it. It would be introduced only after the referendum. No marriages will be annulled.

Still very bad, of course. I hereby invite all Slovenian gay people to come to the Netherlands

[DavidB.]

The point is that they cannot ignore the result; it is binding. I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to Slovenian institutional design, but I am pretty sure a new parliamentary vote would be needed in order to introduce SSM, which opens up the possibility for a new referendum. This would likely be organized, lead to a similar outcome, and make the government look bad/undemocratic. No, I think the introduction of SSM will sadly be shelved for the next, say, 5 years.

[DavidB.]

Very disappointing.

[DavidB.]

It's only a matter of years before the same question is asked again, and SSM is accepted.

Central and eastern european countries are a few years behind western or nordic Europe on this topic, but the trend is in the same direction everywhere.

Do you realize how Orwellian and creepy this sounds?

I find people who consider same-sex marriage creepy to be much more creepy...

[DavidB.]

It seems like a realistic expectation that it's only a matter of years until there is a majority for same sex-marriage in many Eastern European countries. In fact, I think in countries like the Czech Republic and Estonia there might already be a majority.

[DavidB.]

If you oppose adoption, it's because you think all gay people are necessarily pedophiles.

I don't think this is necessarily true: opposition to gay adoption doesn't have to be related to pedophilia. One can consider gay marriage okay because "love is love" and gay people's marriage does not hurt anybody, yet think children should be raised by non-same-sex parents because that is the "natural way of families" and by adopting children, gay couples involve others in their "lifestyle".

To be sure, I don't agree with this line of reasoning and I am in favor of gay couples having the same rights when it comes to adopting children, but I could see why people consider supporting gay adoption a more liberal position than supporting same-sex marriage.

[DavidB.]

Just noticed something, a little bit offtopic:
Real-not imaginary liberal Jew strongly supporting priviliges for homosexual people. Wet dream of nationalists, the best Christmas present ever for them.

I'm not really sure if I understand you correctly. Your point is that I shouldn't hold liberal positions on issues regarding gay people because I'm Jewish and that will cause some "nationalists" to "rationalize" their anti-Semitism? Because that doesn't really fly with me. If "nationalists" find it relevant that I'm Jewish when I hold liberal positions on issues regarding gay people, then they'll also find it relevant that I'm Jewish when I don't. Besides that (and more importantly), they are the ones who should learn to live with the fact that Jews, like non-Jews, have a right to hold every position they want to hold in the debate regarding homosexuality. My right to live in Europe or in the Netherlands does not depend on my political views, and that is not likely to change anytime soon. Changing my positions because a few anti-Semitic people might otherwise become more anti-Semitic would be rather absurd.

Apart from that, anti-Semitic nationalists in the Netherlands aren't really a thing -- not taking into account 4chan and some far-right neo-nazi fringe group with fewer than 300 members. I don't necessarily associate nationalism with anti-Semitism, although in Eastern Europe they are of course often linked.

[DavidB.]

David I have some questions. In your secret Jew meetings, how do you decide which Gentiles to turn gay?

Just produce series like Glee, Will & Grace, and Orange Is The New Black and things will sort themselves out Next question about our secrets?

[DavidB.]

I was successful in identifying the type of attitude you portrayed, kataak, I only thought you were being serious...

My own invention, although I am using it only on that forum as in Polish it doesn't sound well.
:I

This is my very real struggle with the amazing word left-leftist. "Linkslinkse" is simply not going to fly in the Netherlands...