Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet

[ag]

As many people have said "Allahu akbar" is used by most Muslim Arabs, so these rebels could be secular Muslims. Of course they're not, people can read up on this groups conquest of the Armenian populated coastal city of Kessab, where they vandalised Churches and force converted the few old people who stayed back. They're not ISIS bad, but they're not secular or even moderate.

Do you know what "Allahu akbar" means? I assume you do, but I was just wondering.

God (Allah) is Great. But here's the thing I know a great number of atheists who use the word God or religious terms in common speech.

Even Arab Christians say "Allah" when talking about god. By itself it means nothing.

[°Leprechaun]

As many people have said "Allahu akbar" is used by most Muslim Arabs, so these rebels could be secular Muslims. Of course they're not, people can read up on this groups conquest of the Armenian populated coastal city of Kessab, where they vandalised Churches and force converted the few old people who stayed back. They're not ISIS bad, but they're not secular or even moderate.

Do you know what "Allahu akbar" means? I assume you do, but I was just wondering.

God (Allah) is Great. But here's the thing I know a great number of atheists who use the word God or religious terms in common speech.

Correct. I just wanted to be sure. Einstein spoke of God. But he didn't use it the way Christians would.

[ingemann]

This is not good news. It is, of course, bad news. Why would anybody want to get into a war with Russia? That makes no sense.

Turkey claim that the population in the area Russia bomb are Turkmens (common name for Turks in Levant and Mesopotania). Of course that's not the real reason, the Turks want to stop the Russian bombings, because if the regime reconquer the area, the rebels lose easy access to Turkey, instead they have to go through mountains, making the access much harder.



If they lose access to Turkey, they lose access to supplies and recruits (not many anymore, as most Sunni foreign fighters tend to join ISIS today, but it would still be a disaster), and they're already lacking recruits.

If that happens Turkey lose its last influence on the conflict, they can't open use ISIS as their actor, the Kurds and Kurdish align rebels are for logical reason not a option either. So if this happen, Turkey will become mostly irrelevant, which are also why Turkey are trying to found a new "Turkmen" group as their representants

[ingemann]

As many people have said "Allahu akbar" is used by most Muslim Arabs, so these rebels could be secular Muslims. Of course they're not, people can read up on this groups conquest of the Armenian populated coastal city of Kessab, where they vandalised Churches and force converted the few old people who stayed back. They're not ISIS bad, but they're not secular or even moderate.

Do you know what "Allahu akbar" means? I assume you do, but I was just wondering.

God (Allah) is Great. But here's the thing I know a great number of atheists who use the word God or religious terms in common speech.

Even Arab Christians say "Allah" when talking about god. By itself it means nothing.

Yes through Christian Arabs doesn't use the chant "Allahu Akbar". Of course that doesn't change the fact that these rebels, have shown through their action elsewhere, that they're Islamist, and not the cuddly kind of Islamists.

BTW here's a link to their behaviour in Kessab http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11323109/Dispatch-Syria-rebels-burned-down-churches-and-destroyed-Christian-graves.html.

[Admiral Kizaru]

Good for Turkey.  It's about time a NATO country stands up to Russian belligerence.  Now Putin will be exposed as all bluster, because in reality there is nothing Russia can or is willing to do about this without getting into a war they can't win.

Agree with this.

Look just because some of Turkey's behavior with regards to the Syrian situation has been frankly reprehensible (ignoring the genocide right on their doorstep in Kobane being a real egregious one for me) and that Erdogan is becoming ever more autocratic doesn't mean they weren't in the right on this particular incident.

Russia has been aggressively violating numerous international airspaces and territorial waters recently, putting submarines off the coast of Sweden and constantly encroaching on British and Canadian airspaces causing them scramble fighters to respond.  

Eventually someone was going to react to it. They've got no one else to blame but themselves for today and hopefully NATO stands fully behind Turkey.

[ag]

Considering the role Turkey has been playing in accomodating the refugees (for some years now), if we call its behavior in this case "reprehensible", I do not know what we should call that of the rest of us. I guess, "genocidal" would be to scale.

[Silent Hunter]

Russia has been aggressively violating numerous international airspaces and territorial waters recently, putting submarines off the coast of Sweden and constantly encroaching on British and Canadian airspaces causing them scramble fighters to respond. 

Actually, they haven't actually really been violating UK and Canadian airspace. Their 'bomber patrols' have stayed in international airspace, but instead entering the NATO Air Defence Zone and the fighters scrambled to as much monitor them, as they're flying around without transponders on near civilian air corridors. It's something the USSR and US did all the time in the Cold War.

This incident is different of course; from the evidence the Turks have released so far, it appears that the Su-24 was in Turkish airspace when the AAM was fired, about to leave it when the missiles struck and crashed in Syria. It was in Turkey, but barely.

In fact, many of Turkey's allies have been calling for de-escalation; nobody wants a war over this.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Both countries' leaders/governments are pretty appalling... so who cares, as long as it doesn't escalate further.

[BundouYMB]

Both countries' leaders/governments are pretty appalling... so who cares, as long as it doesn't escalate further.

Because even if both these countries were 100% free, liberal democracies (they're not) governments don't represent everyone who lives in the country. Vladimir Putin wasn't in the plane.

[Crumpets]

So, just an observation, looking at the Turkish map that's been published, it looks like the incident occurred in the Northwest corner of the country, not far from Jisr ash-Shughur. That's hardly an ISIL-friendly or ISIL-controlled area, and is mostly under the control of the FSA with some pockets of al-Nusra Front support. Granted, it's not far from the Russian base in Latakia, but what were their planes doing circling that area in the first place?

[ag]

So, just an observation, looking at the Turkish map that's been published, it looks like the incident occurred in the Northwest corner of the country, not far from Jisr ash-Shughur. That's hardly an ISIL-friendly or ISIL-controlled area, and is mostly under the control of the FSA with some pockets of al-Nusra Front support. Granted, it's not far from the Russian base in Latakia, but what were their planes doing circling that area in the first place?

Killing Turkish allies, of course.

Even the Russians are justifying this not by fighting ISIS, but by claiming there were, basically, Chechens on the ground there.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Would it be appropriate to say that Turkey is playing the part of the Pakistan of this conflict, where they play both sides? Bombing ISIS while tolerating supplies and fighters passing through, using it as an excuse to fight the Kurds, etc.

[Blue3]

Just to clarify...




Turkey shot down the Russian bomber.
 
Then someone else shot down a Russian helicopter on the rescue mission, killing at least one Russian marine. This is the one that might have been shot down by rebels in Syria.

[ag]

Would it be appropriate to say that Turkey is playing the part of the Pakistan of this conflict, where they play both sides? Bombing ISIS while tolerating supplies and fighters passing through, using it as an excuse to fight the Kurds, etc.

No. If you want to push the analogy, everybody is a Pakistan there now. The war has become far too multi-sided.

[ag]

Just to clarify...




Turkey shot down the Russian bomber.
 
Then someone else shot down a Russian helicopter on the rescue mission, killing at least one Russian marine. This is the one that might have been shot down by rebels in Syria.

The locals also claim they shot the pilots of the original plane as they were parachuting down.

[Silent Hunter]

Which is of course a war crime.

[Boston Bread]

So, just an observation, looking at the Turkish map that's been published, it looks like the incident occurred in the Northwest corner of the country, not far from Jisr ash-Shughur. That's hardly an ISIL-friendly or ISIL-controlled area, and is mostly under the control of the FSA with some pockets of al-Nusra Front support. Granted, it's not far from the Russian base in Latakia, but what were their planes doing circling that area in the first place?

Russia has dropped more bombs on the Free Syrian Army than ISIS, so this wouldn't be anything new. It's not surprising that the moderate rebels and Russia don't get along well.

These are Russian airstrikes from Oct 7-8 (FSA in yellow):

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

So, just an observation, looking at the Turkish map that's been published, it looks like the incident occurred in the Northwest corner of the country, not far from Jisr ash-Shughur. That's hardly an ISIL-friendly or ISIL-controlled area, and is mostly under the control of the FSA with some pockets of al-Nusra Front support. Granted, it's not far from the Russian base in Latakia, but what were their planes doing circling that area in the first place?

Russia has dropped more bombs on the Free Syrian Army than ISIS, so this wouldn't be anything new. It's not surprising that the moderate rebels and Russia don't get along well.

This is from early October, so things might have slightly changed since then:

The Free Syrian Army is even worse than ISIS, considering that they are fighting the only government in Syria that can hold back ISIS.

'Tis a shame Turkey is in NATO, because I hope Putin brings the boot down on that prick Erdogan.

[MaxQue]

So, just an observation, looking at the Turkish map that's been published, it looks like the incident occurred in the Northwest corner of the country, not far from Jisr ash-Shughur. That's hardly an ISIL-friendly or ISIL-controlled area, and is mostly under the control of the FSA with some pockets of al-Nusra Front support. Granted, it's not far from the Russian base in Latakia, but what were their planes doing circling that area in the first place?

Russia has dropped more bombs on the Free Syrian Army than ISIS, so this wouldn't be anything new. It's not surprising that the moderate rebels and Russia don't get along well.

This is from early October, so things might have slightly changed since then:

The Free Syrian Army is even worse than ISIS, considering that they are fighting the only government in Syria that can hold back ISIS.

'Tis a shame Turkey is in NATO, because I hope Putin brings the boot down on that prick Erdogan.

Which is more useful to control Syria?

The neighbour or a distant neighbour?

Also, note than Putin mostly bomb FSA, not ISIS. It's normal, his goal isn't to defeat ISIS, it's to defeat FSA so the only oppisition on Assad is ISIS, forcing the West to back his dictator pal Assad (between dictators, they help each other).

Stop being so naive about the new, rebranded USSR.

[Green Line]

Putin is deploying anti-air missile batteries to Syria.

[ingemann]

So, just an observation, looking at the Turkish map that's been published, it looks like the incident occurred in the Northwest corner of the country, not far from Jisr ash-Shughur. That's hardly an ISIL-friendly or ISIL-controlled area, and is mostly under the control of the FSA with some pockets of al-Nusra Front support. Granted, it's not far from the Russian base in Latakia, but what were their planes doing circling that area in the first place?

Russia has dropped more bombs on the Free Syrian Army than ISIS, so this wouldn't be anything new. It's not surprising that the moderate rebels and Russia don't get along well.

This is from early October, so things might have slightly changed since then:

The Free Syrian Army is even worse than ISIS, considering that they are fighting the only government in Syria that can hold back ISIS.

'Tis a shame Turkey is in NATO, because I hope Putin brings the boot down on that prick Erdogan.

Which is more useful to control Syria?

The neighbour or a distant neighbour?

Also, note than Putin mostly bomb FSA, not ISIS. It's normal, his goal isn't to defeat ISIS, it's to defeat FSA so the only oppisition on Assad is ISIS, forcing the West to back his dictator pal Assad (between dictators, they help each other).

Stop being so naive about the new, rebranded USSR.

Okay people try look at the pretty colours on the map. Could there be one very logical reason why a regime and its supporters whose powerbase is on the coast primarily attack the rebels who threaten the coast? There's no greater conspiracy in why Assad's regime and its allies, focus on the enemies who are closest rather than enemy who's in the other side of the country.

I'm no great military expect, but honestly people there's nothing suspect or conspiratorial about, Assad's, Iran's and Russia's behaviour, they fight the enemies who are the biggest threats to the regime. While ignoring the enemies, who are unable to threaten the regime, it's also why ISIS have been attacked at Palmyra and east of Aleppo, because it's the only places they threaten the regime (plus east of Aleppo the regime needed to connect to a base, which was surronded by ISIS, where the local pro-Assad bureaucrats and their families had fled to, earlier in the war). It's also why you don't see Russian attacks in the south, as the FSA and Al-nusra rebels there aren't a threat to the regime.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

So, just an observation, looking at the Turkish map that's been published, it looks like the incident occurred in the Northwest corner of the country, not far from Jisr ash-Shughur. That's hardly an ISIL-friendly or ISIL-controlled area, and is mostly under the control of the FSA with some pockets of al-Nusra Front support. Granted, it's not far from the Russian base in Latakia, but what were their planes doing circling that area in the first place?

Russia has dropped more bombs on the Free Syrian Army than ISIS, so this wouldn't be anything new. It's not surprising that the moderate rebels and Russia don't get along well.

This is from early October, so things might have slightly changed since then:

The Free Syrian Army is even worse than ISIS, considering that they are fighting the only government in Syria that can hold back ISIS.

'Tis a shame Turkey is in NATO, because I hope Putin brings the boot down on that prick Erdogan.

Which is more useful to control Syria?

The neighbour or a distant neighbour?

Also, note than Putin mostly bomb FSA, not ISIS. It's normal, his goal isn't to defeat ISIS, it's to defeat FSA so the only oppisition on Assad is ISIS, forcing the West to back his dictator pal Assad (between dictators, they help each other).

Stop being so naive about the new, rebranded USSR.

Yeah...no shit Max. Of course he is propping up his new found puppet. And so should we. I'd rather have a Russian puppet in power than a death cult.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The thing is officially the non-ISIS combatants are supposed to be being goaded into a ceasefire being brokered within the next month, but it looks a bit false when Russians continue to bomb non-isis forces.

[DavidB.]

Bottom line remains: terribles fight terribles.

[palandio]

So, just an observation, looking at the Turkish map that's been published, it looks like the incident occurred in the Northwest corner of the country, not far from Jisr ash-Shughur. That's hardly an ISIL-friendly or ISIL-controlled area, and is mostly under the control of the FSA with some pockets of al-Nusra Front support. Granted, it's not far from the Russian base in Latakia, but what were their planes doing circling that area in the first place?

Russia has dropped more bombs on the Free Syrian Army than ISIS, so this wouldn't be anything new. It's not surprising that the moderate rebels and Russia don't get along well.

These are Russian airstrikes from Oct 7-8 (FSA in yellow):
[...]

I don't agree at all.

According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR), November 20, Russian bombs have killed at least 547 Daesh fighters, 381 other rebels and 403 civilians so far. So even SOHR which is very pro-opposition says that Russia has killed more Daesh fighters than other rebels.

Secondly, the yellow areas in Northwestern Syria are not controlled by the FSA or other "moderate rebels". In late 2014 and early 2015 the Nusra Front (Syrian branch of Al Qaida) cleared the Northwestern rebel territories from all remaining US-backed rebel factions (Syrian Revolutionaries' Front and Hazzm Movement mainly) and has since then eliminated all newly arrived moderates (like Division 30). Other strong rebel groups like Ahrar al-Sham and Jund Al-Aqsa share the jihadist ideology of the Nusra Front and cooperate with the Nusra Front in operation rooms like "Army of Conquest" (Idlib Province) or "Conquest of Aleppo". And yes, there are some divisions and brigades within the Northwestern rebel alliance that still run under the label "FSA" or "Turkmen" but the meaning of these labels is mainly "deliver US TOWs here" and "deliver Turkish weapons here" respectively, and not "we want a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic Syria".

That being said, I agree with the thoughts Ingemann has expressed. The Northwestern rebels at the moment are the biggest threat for the regime and its strongholds militarily.