Mainstream Muslims Finally Take on Extremists
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Author Topic: Mainstream Muslims Finally Take on Extremists  (Read 7296 times)
Frodo
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« on: November 26, 2015, 12:52:45 PM »

And it begins in Indonesia:

From Indonesia, a Muslim Challenge to the Ideology of the Islamic State

By JOE COCHRANE
NOV. 26, 2015


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tmcusa2
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2015, 01:18:25 PM »

Something to be thankful for.
Thanks Frodo.
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RFayette
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2015, 02:15:51 PM »

It's a good start.  Hopefully, they'll repent and come to know the true God of the Bible.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2015, 03:18:42 PM »
« Edited: November 26, 2015, 03:26:24 PM by Teach Peace. »

It's a good start.  Hopefully, they'll repent and come to know the true God of the Bible.
"Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or to regret."

Koran 2:62
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 03:44:20 PM »

1Behold, the LORD'S hand is not so short That it cannot save; Nor is His ear so dull That it cannot hear. 2But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.… (Isaiah 59)
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Sbane
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2015, 04:11:48 PM »

It's a good start.  Hopefully, they'll repent and come to know the true God of the Bible.

Disgusting.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2015, 10:37:38 PM »

Believing in the literalness and infallibility of the Koran necessitates a lot of extremist views.

Until Muslims are ready to throw that idea out, the way most Christians did, extremism will remain a major problem.
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Blue3
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 10:58:22 PM »

I don't approve of this title. You think mainstream Muslims haven't been fighting against extremists?
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2015, 01:14:03 PM »

I agree, Blue3. The word "finally" is misleading.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 02:05:35 PM »

There are a lot of caveats to be made here.

One, this is Indonesia, as the article says, "Analysts say the theology developed organically in a place where Hinduism and Buddhism were the primary religions before Islam."  This is not an example of "Mainstream Muslims," if there truly is such a thing.  Indonesia has a history of secularism and a synthesis of various religious traditions, which says more about Indonesia than about Islam.  And, even in Indonesia, there are Al Qaeda groups and areas where sharia law is enforced as a matter of course.

We should also actually define what is "moderate" and what is "extreme."  Being against ISIS or Al Qaeda does not make you "moderate."  Being non-violent does not make you "moderate" or "mainstream."  The sad fact is that liberals oversimplify Islam to make apologies and defend Muslims, as much as conservatives oversimplify Islam because of xenophobia. 

In my opinion, mainstream Islam is fairly extreme and getting worse.  You have the influence of Saudi Arabia and Iran, which have both turned Islam into a very dangerous thing.  In much of the Islamic world, Islam has become, in large part, a hateful fascist ideology, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan.  So, what is the "true" Islam and what is the anomaly?  What is extreme and what is mainstream?
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2015, 02:16:40 PM »

I don't approve of this title. You think mainstream Muslims haven't been fighting against extremists?
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2015, 02:20:18 PM »
« Edited: November 27, 2015, 02:21:49 PM by Teach Peace. »

Are any religions truly united? Judaism? Christianity? Buddhism?

Islam is clearly divided by groups that consider the others heretical. That is part of the problem.

In spite of the fact that many religious are in inter-faith dialogue, there remain many problems between different religions.

Stephen Prothero wrote a book about 8 rival religions that rule the world. Of course, there are more than eight. He has chapters one each one. Yoruba religion (odd that he includes that, perhaps), Confucianism, Daoism (aka Taoism), Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. He titles the book "God is not One". A good title. Until all theists get together and put aside their differences, how can they believe in One God? That is the condundrum of theistic religion.

edit: ok I know I went of on a tangent which seemingly doesn't relate to this thread, but the point is that ISLAM is not one united religion (and neither are the others).
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2015, 02:26:30 PM »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.
The question in my mind are countries with minority Muslim populations, where Muslims don't have the same kind of power that they do in majority Muslim countries.
Muslims in a country such as the USA are more likely to be moderate to the degree that they accept the values, culture and ethics of whatever country they are in.
Of course, secular countries with Muslim majorities would be better than non secular ones. This would be true of other religions as well.
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ingemann
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2015, 03:28:52 PM »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.

There's not some platonic ideal which embody Islam, Islam are what Muslims do today.

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Muslims in USA are not representive, not even for Muslim minority population around the world, and BTW until they was singled out after 2001, they was happily part of the RR coalition in GOP with all which followed that; hostility to atheism, gay rights etc. It was only the moment they discovered that they was a minority they began to behave like civilised people or at least began to pay lip service to it.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2015, 03:35:40 PM »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.

There's not some platonic ideal which embody Islam, Islam are what Muslims do today.

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Muslims in USA are not representive, not even for Muslim minority population around the world, and BTW until they was singled out after 2001, they was happily part of the RR coalition in GOP with all which followed that; hostility to atheism, gay rights etc. It was only the moment they discovered that they was a minority they began to behave like civilised people or at least began to pay lip service to it.

The point is that there are moderate Muslims. I don't know what percent of Muslims are moderate. Although I am not a fan of Islam in any way, I do think that it is important to give credit to any of them who oppose the dogmatic ones.
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ingemann
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2015, 03:52:53 PM »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.

There's not some platonic ideal which embody Islam, Islam are what Muslims do today.

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Muslims in USA are not representative, not even for Muslim minority population around the world, and BTW until they was singled out after 2001, they was happily part of the RR coalition in GOP with all which followed that; hostility to atheism, gay rights etc. It was only the moment they discovered that they was a minority they began to behave like civilised people or at least began to pay lip service to it.

The point is that there are moderate Muslims. I don't know what percent of Muslims are moderate. Although I am not a fan of Islam in any way, I do think that it is important to give credit to any of them who oppose the dogmatic ones.

The term moderate Muslims are meaningless on it own, moderate compared to what? Do there exist liberal Muslim; yes I have meet many of the, I have also meet MINOs, I have meet conservative Muslims who didn't wish to force their religions on anybody. In fact I work with a conservative Muslims, he's a general nice guy all around, while another guy I studied with was a "moderate" Muslim, and I despised him. These terms are meaningless, and in fact I do not blame a lot of Muslims that they fail to "take on" the extremists, the risk for them if they did that is much bigger than for everybody else. But make no mistake this unwillingness, which I don't blame them for, have a price in that the rest of society see Muslims as a unpleasant faceless mass and their leaders as double tongued liars.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2015, 03:54:48 PM »
« Edited: November 27, 2015, 03:56:23 PM by Famous Mortimer »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.
The question in my mind are countries with minority Muslim populations, where Muslims don't have the same kind of power that they do in majority Muslim countries.
Muslims in a country such as the USA are more likely to be moderate to the degree that they accept the values, culture and ethics of whatever country they are in.
Of course, secular countries with Muslim majorities would be better than non secular ones. This would be true of other religions as well.

Islam shouldn't be judged by what Islamic societies do but by what Muslim minorities in non-Islamic societies do? Why? This seems like a random assertion. The only reason I can think of for making it is that you think Muslim minorities make Muslims look better. The fact is, they don't though. It does not look good when a group only supports freedom of expression when they they themselves are a minority.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2015, 04:26:57 PM »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.
The question in my mind are countries with minority Muslim populations, where Muslims don't have the same kind of power that they do in majority Muslim countries.
Muslims in a country such as the USA are more likely to be moderate to the degree that they accept the values, culture and ethics of whatever country they are in.
Of course, secular countries with Muslim majorities would be better than non secular ones. This would be true of other religions as well.

Islam shouldn't be judged by what Islamic societies do but by what Muslim minorities in non-Islamic societies do? Why? This seems like a random assertion. The only reason I can think of for making it is that you think Muslim minorities make Muslims look better. The fact is, they don't though. It does not look good when a group only supports freedom of expression when they they themselves are a minority.

Right.  It's very interesting how people defend Islam.  There is no much obfuscation in lieu of making actual claims that could be refuted.

An analogy is helpful here.  Let's say we're talking about whether ice cream is a healthy food.  Does the following sentence make sense?  Some people who eat ice cream in moderation are healthy so ice cream is healthy.

Of course not.  It's like people think the argument is, can you be both Muslim and non extreme/moderate?  Sure!  But, speaking up in favor of moderating ice cream, or Islam, or cigarette smoking doesn't necessarily recommend any of those activities.  It recommends not demonizing anyone who is Muslim, smokes one cigarette a year or eats Ice cream, certainly.

I think what everyone wants from Muslims is to very basic.  Accept secularism, secular government and law, accept the basic western liberal conception of civil liberty, and take your religion with an appropriate grain of salt, IE don't be literal or fundamentalist.  That's the same thing we expect from Jews and Christians.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2015, 04:48:50 PM »

I can use the term "liberal" instead of "moderate". I am not defending Islam at all. It is a question of what the facts are. I am not a fan of Western religion, Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
I was merely pointing out that not all Muslims are the same. I never said that we should judge Islam by what a group of Muslims say or do. When I said you shouldn't judge Islam, my point was not that we shouldn't ever criticize Islam, or at least what is wrong with Islam. I'm all for that. The point is that there are some liberal Muslims.
I agree with the "atheist" Sam Harris on some of what he is saying. He is extremely critical of Islam in particular and religion in general. He recognizes that not all Muslims are the same. That was my point. I don't know how any of you got something else out of what I was saying.
Islam needs to evolve. If it were to disappear altogether that would be better than the way it is now. But bigotry against Islam is not the answer. Sikhs are not Muslims, but have been mistaken for them. Not all Arabs are Muslims. Sufis are not accepted by the "other" Muslims. By the way I do find a lot of good ideas in Sufism. Being "for" or "against" Islam is a false dichotomy.

The Koran does speak of hell which I don't support.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2015, 04:51:54 PM »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.
The question in my mind are countries with minority Muslim populations, where Muslims don't have the same kind of power that they do in majority Muslim countries.
Muslims in a country such as the USA are more likely to be moderate to the degree that they accept the values, culture and ethics of whatever country they are in.
Of course, secular countries with Muslim majorities would be better than non secular ones. This would be true of other religions as well.
NOT ENTIRELY that was my point. If most of a group is wrong and there is a small number who have evolved a little, shouldn't that small group get some credit?
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2015, 04:56:37 PM »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.

There's not some platonic ideal which embody Islam, Islam are what Muslims do today.

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Muslims in USA are not representive, not even for Muslim minority population around the world, and BTW until they was singled out after 2001, they was happily part of the RR coalition in GOP with all which followed that; hostility to atheism, gay rights etc. It was only the moment they discovered that they was a minority they began to behave like civilised people or at least began to pay lip service to it.

The point is that there are moderate Muslims. I don't know what percent of Muslims are moderate. Although I am not a fan of Islam in any way, I do think that it is important to give credit to any of them who oppose the dogmatic ones.
I don't know how people get out of that statement that I am defending Islam. I am don't want to attack ALL Islam either, because that would be unfair.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2015, 04:58:49 PM »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.
The question in my mind are countries with minority Muslim populations, where Muslims don't have the same kind of power that they do in majority Muslim countries.
Muslims in a country such as the USA are more likely to be moderate to the degree that they accept the values, culture and ethics of whatever country they are in.
Of course, secular countries with Muslim majorities would be better than non secular ones. This would be true of other religions as well.

Islam shouldn't be judged by what Islamic societies do but by what Muslim minorities in non-Islamic societies do? Why? This seems like a random assertion. The only reason I can think of for making it is that you think Muslim minorities make Muslims look better. The fact is, they don't though. It does not look good when a group only supports freedom of expression when they they themselves are a minority.
Muslim minorities want to help Islam to evolve. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't think they make Islam look better; the point is that they aren't the same as other Muslims.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2015, 05:02:36 PM »

The question is, why are Muslims in the US in the first place if they don't like the values and culture of the country? A lot of anti-Muslim bigotry is directed at them. Is that a good thing?
Obviously there are some Muslims in the US that hate the US, but is that the majority?

These are the questions. I am not trying to defend Islam, but I am opposed to arbitrary bigotry against an entire group of people even if I am not interested in converting to their religion.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2015, 05:04:32 PM »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.
The question in my mind are countries with minority Muslim populations, where Muslims don't have the same kind of power that they do in majority Muslim countries.
Muslims in a country such as the USA are more likely to be moderate to the degree that they accept the values, culture and ethics of whatever country they are in.
Of course, secular countries with Muslim majorities would be better than non secular ones. This would be true of other religions as well.

Islam shouldn't be judged by what Islamic societies do but by what Muslim minorities in non-Islamic societies do? Why? This seems like a random assertion. The only reason I can think of for making it is that you think Muslim minorities make Muslims look better. The fact is, they don't though. It does not look good when a group only supports freedom of expression when they they themselves are a minority.
Muslim minorities want to help Islam to evolve. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't think they make Islam look better; the point is that they aren't the same as other Muslims.

You're missing my point. You assume that minority Muslim communities just happen to coincidentally be more liberal. I think that's unlikely. They're probably more liberal because their situation forces them to be. If you took those same communities and plopped them in the middle of an Islamic society, they would mostly likely adopt the norms of that new, more conservative, society even more quickly.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2015, 05:10:22 PM »

Islam also shouldn't be judged on what Muslim countries do. Well, not entirely.
The question in my mind are countries with minority Muslim populations, where Muslims don't have the same kind of power that they do in majority Muslim countries.
Muslims in a country such as the USA are more likely to be moderate to the degree that they accept the values, culture and ethics of whatever country they are in.
Of course, secular countries with Muslim majorities would be better than non secular ones. This would be true of other religions as well.

Islam shouldn't be judged by what Islamic societies do but by what Muslim minorities in non-Islamic societies do? Why? This seems like a random assertion. The only reason I can think of for making it is that you think Muslim minorities make Muslims look better. The fact is, they don't though. It does not look good when a group only supports freedom of expression when they they themselves are a minority.
Muslim minorities want to help Islam to evolve. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't think they make Islam look better; the point is that they aren't the same as other Muslims.

You're missing my point. You assume that minority Muslim communities just happen to coincidentally be more liberal. I think that's unlikely. They're probably more liberal because their situation forces them to be. If you took those same communities and plopped them in the middle of an Islamic society, they would mostly likely adopt the norms of that new, more conservative, society even more quickly.
My point was that why do Muslims move to non Muslims countries in the first place?You're right that I shouldn't assume anything and I can't think of any Muslims that I know personally. So I can't say what Muslims are thinking. Obviously Muslims living in countries where dissent is crushed can't very well speak out against the evils of their leaders, without danger.
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