Israel and Palestine: The One-State Solution

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

We need a one state solution with Israel being the only state and expand it to Biblical Borders.
 And include Sinai in it

Wouldn't that create a Palestinian-majority country that overwhelms the concept of a Jewish state?

Yes, which is why I wonder if Classic Conservative supports the ethnic cleansing that would be necessary for those borders to work in the 21st century.

In his defense, he's what, 12? I don't think children can intuitively figure out the problem of ethnic cleansing until they're at least 2-3 years older.

heck, many people never figure it out.

[Torie]

How can Israel remain 1) a Jewish state, 2) a democracy, and 3) one state that takes in all of Palestine? It's untenable. And thus it will never happen. But Israel seems not that upset with the status quo. It essentially runs the West Bank, with no issue of having to worry about issues 1) and 2).

[Comrade Funk]

Israel is burying its own grave. I don't understand how right-wing fanatics support further settlement invasion when it will ensure either 1.)Binational or 2.)Apartheid.

Maybe they are okay with Apartheid?

[DavidB.]

It's untenable. And thus it will never happen.

I don't think the latter conclusion necessarily follows the former one.

[Torie]

It's untenable. And thus it will never happen.

I don't think the latter conclusion necessarily follows the former one.

Then Israel is in deep sh*t.

[dead0man]

It's untenable. And thus it will never happen.

I don't think the latter conclusion necessarily follows the former one.

Then Israel is in deep sh*t.

People outside of Israel have been saying that since it's birth.  Many of them hoping for it, some of them actively working towards it.  Israel has done just fine, great even.  Yeah, their future might not be as secure as the US or, say, Japan, but one could fairly easy make the argument that they are the most secure country within 1500 miles of Tel Aviv (except Italy).


(I'm not saying one can't make good arguments for other countries being more secure, one certainly can....Turkey ain't going anywhere for example)

[Comrade Funk]

It's untenable. And thus it will never happen.

I don't think the latter conclusion necessarily follows the former one.

Then Israel is in deep sh*t.

People outside of Israel have been saying that since it's birth.  Many of them hoping for it, some of them actively working towards it.  Israel has done just fine, great even.  Yeah, their future might not be as secure as the US or, say, Japan, but one could fairly easy make the argument that they are the most secure country within 1500 miles of Tel Aviv (except Italy).


(I'm not saying one can't make good arguments for other countries being more secure, one certainly can....Turkey ain't going anywhere for example)

Israel as a Jewish and democratic state isn't secure. Moving farther into the West Bank while paying lip service to the US isn't gonna work anymore as John Kerry said. Israel (Bibi) is alienating the Democratic Party. Israel needs the US to  be bipartisan behind it. Increasingly, it isn't.

[Torie]

It's untenable. And thus it will never happen.

I don't think the latter conclusion necessarily follows the former one.

Then Israel is in deep sh*t.

People outside of Israel have been saying that since it's birth.  Many of them hoping for it, some of them actively working towards it.  Israel has done just fine, great even.  Yeah, their future might not be as secure as the US or, say, Japan, but one could fairly easy make the argument that they are the most secure country within 1500 miles of Tel Aviv (except Italy).


(I'm not saying one can't make good arguments for other countries being more secure, one certainly can....Turkey ain't going anywhere for example)

You don't think Israel has a real problem if it annexes the West Bank? As I said, I think the status quo works for Israel reasonably well. And I don't think the West Bank leaders really want an independent state. They certainly don't act like it. At some point, they may change their mind.

[DavidB.]

Then Israel is in deep sh*t.

That could very well be the case. But everything can change in a few years time.

You don't think Israel has a real problem if it annexes the West Bank? As I said, I think the status quo works for Israel reasonably well. And I don't think the West Bank leaders really want an independent state. They certainly don't act like it. At some point, they may change their mind.

Of course they're going to keep the status-quo. As much as I'd like it, in the short term annexing J&S would only bring trouble.

[Comrade Funk]

Then Israel is in deep sh*t.

That could very well be the case. But everything can change in a few years time.

You don't think Israel has a real problem if it annexes the West Bank? As I said, I think the status quo works for Israel reasonably well. And I don't think the West Bank leaders really want an independent state. They certainly don't act like it. At some point, they may change their mind.

Of course they're going to keep the status-quo. As much as I'd like it, in the short term annexing J&S would only bring trouble.

What's the long term solution for annexation?

[ag]

Cautious nazism on exhibit. I am going to be reported again, of course.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

I mean, let's be real, there is no "long term status quo" for Israel, because any time one starts to emerge, Hamas, the PA, or one of Israel's surrounding enemies will do something depraved and blow it up. Six months ago, it seemed like international isolation might be getting to Israel and forcing them back to the table - and then Abbas incited his citizens to start stabbing random Jews in the street, and now an even more right-wing government is likely.

[Angel of Death]

Abbas incited his citizens to start stabbing random Jews in the street

Big lie technique in action. You can repeat it as many times as you want, and it still wouldn't be true. Israeli intelligence itself is telling their government the violence is due to the occupation.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Abbas incited his citizens to start stabbing random Jews in the street

Big lie technique in action. You can repeat it as many times as you want, and it still wouldn't be true. Israeli intelligence itself is telling their government the violence is due to the occupation.

Then why wasn't it happening for years, until Abbas began lying that the Jews were going to "invade" the Temple Mount?

[ingemann]

I have always supported a two state solution, but honestly I don't see how it can happen anymore, some posters here may have illusions about Egyptians and Jordanians being suckers enough to take Gaza and the West Bank Bantustan, of course that won't happen and people need to blind idiots to think it would ever happen.

As for independent Palestinia, well Gaza is a de facto independent city state and it will likely stay that way. The West Bank Bantustan on the other hand, I don't see the leaders of it agreeing to independence without it stopping to be a Bantustan and becoming a potential viable state, and that would demand that most of the settlement was either put under Palestinian control or being disestablish. Israel's problem are that West Bank Palestinians can simply sit down and wait, their position of a one state solution will only improve, every new settler make it harder for Israel to get rid of the West Bank and the demographic development favours the Palestinians. So they can simply wait. Israel also have the problem that the American debate about Israel is where the European one were in the late 90ties, it's slowly being eroded and Bibi being a obnoxious douche doesn't help.

[dead0man]

It's untenable. And thus it will never happen.

I don't think the latter conclusion necessarily follows the former one.

Then Israel is in deep sh*t.

People outside of Israel have been saying that since it's birth.  Many of them hoping for it, some of them actively working towards it.  Israel has done just fine, great even.  Yeah, their future might not be as secure as the US or, say, Japan, but one could fairly easy make the argument that they are the most secure country within 1500 miles of Tel Aviv (except Italy).


(I'm not saying one can't make good arguments for other countries being more secure, one certainly can....Turkey ain't going anywhere for example)

You don't think Israel has a real problem if it annexes the West Bank? As I said, I think the status quo works for Israel reasonably well. And I don't think the West Bank leaders really want an independent state. They certainly don't act like it. At some point, they may change their mind.

Oh, I may have been confused.  I was arguing they're secure if the status quo remains.  (hell, they'd be secure even if the Palestinians got their sh**t together and actually decided to make a functioning state) I don't know what would happen if they actually tried to legally annex the west bank.  The rest of the world would be angry, but likely not angry enough to actually do anything substantial about it.  There would certainly be more action locally, but the locals don't do military things well.  In the long term (50+ years) it would probably be the best outcome for everybody involved, but it would be very bloody for the first few years.

But Israel isn't going to do that.

[Silent Hunter]

I've said before that nothing is likely to change until the current Israeli PM leaves the scene.

[Torie]

It's untenable. And thus it will never happen.

I don't think the latter conclusion necessarily follows the former one.

Then Israel is in deep sh*t.

People outside of Israel have been saying that since it's birth.  Many of them hoping for it, some of them actively working towards it.  Israel has done just fine, great even.  Yeah, their future might not be as secure as the US or, say, Japan, but one could fairly easy make the argument that they are the most secure country within 1500 miles of Tel Aviv (except Italy).


(I'm not saying one can't make good arguments for other countries being more secure, one certainly can....Turkey ain't going anywhere for example)

You don't think Israel has a real problem if it annexes the West Bank? As I said, I think the status quo works for Israel reasonably well. And I don't think the West Bank leaders really want an independent state. They certainly don't act like it. At some point, they may change their mind.

Oh, I may have been confused.  I was arguing they're secure if the status quo remains.  (hell, they'd be secure even if the Palestinians got their sh**t together and actually decided to make a functioning state) I don't know what would happen if they actually tried to legally annex the west bank.  The rest of the world would be angry, but likely not angry enough to actually do anything substantial about it.  There would certainly be more action locally, but the locals don't do military things well.  In the long term (50+ years) it would probably be the best outcome for everybody involved, but it would be very bloody for the first few years.

But Israel isn't going to do that.

Assuming Israel remained a democracy, the one state in not that long a period, would vote to cease to be a Jewish state, and from there ... well I don't want to even think about that. That is why the whole thing is untenable.

[dead0man]

Aye, very true.

[Mr. Morden]

Israel + West Bank (but no Gaza) would still be a Jewish majority, I believe.  But that would still probably be untenable.  A "one state solution" would presumably lead to civil war.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Israel + West Bank (but no Gaza) would still be a Jewish majority, I believe.  But that would still probably be untenable.  A "one state solution" would presumably lead to civil war.

Yeah, the Orthodox birth rate and the Arab birth rate would balance each other out, I think. However, the growing dependence on the Orthodox would dramatically change Israel in itself.

[ag]

Israel + West Bank (but no Gaza) would still be a Jewish majority, I believe. 

It would. But it would be very difficult to get a "Jewish government".  Basically, even if the non-Zionist parties only get, say 40-45 seats in the Knesset (quite reasonable if only WB is included), any government that excludes them would have to take in very strange coalition partners. Even if some consolidation happens (as it is bound to, given the environment), it is hard to see how such coalitions could form. So, almost necessarily, a joint state, even if majority Jewish, would not be able to stay a Jewish and democratic state at the same time. It will become, at the very least, a binational state along Belgian lines (yes, I see the humor in that sentence ).

I do not believe a one-state solution would lead to a civil war. But, obviously, as of today the one-state solution is unacceptable to an overwhelming majority in both communities. I can see it becoming the Palestinian demand within a generation or so, though. I can hardly imagine it being acceptable to anybody on the Zionist side.

In fact, frankly, if such a state were to emerge after the West Bank annexation, I would not be surprized if a substantial chunk of the Zionist center and left would be willing to go into a coalition with at least part of the "Arab bloc" precisely in order to negotiate a separation. They care about the Jewishness of their state a lot more than they care about its exact territorial dimension. They would be very willing to sacrifice land, but they will never sacrifice the spirit.

Personally, of course, I see nothing wrong with a one-state solution. In fact, if I were an Israeli, I would firmly advocate it. But one has to be realistic: it is anathema to most Jewish origin Israelis. I may not share the Zionist religion, but I have long learned not to fight sincerely held religious beliefs of others.

[Vosem]

Ultimately, I think a one-state solution is the answer; Gaza will be cut loose to be an independent city-state whereas most or all of the West Bank will simply become part of the Israeli state (probably all, since the border with Jordan is actually one of the Jewish areas while the majority-Palestinian ones are all inland), with the Palestinians being at least offered citizenship. Such a state can quite plausibly remain democratic and majority-Jewish (though nowhere near as monolithically as current Israel, of course). Offering a national homeland for both Jews (who would form a majority) and the native peoples of the area would be more consistent in any case with the vision of Ze'ev Jabotinsky.

[ag]

Ultimately, I think a one-state solution is the answer; Gaza will be cut loose to be an independent city-state whereas most or all of the West Bank will simply become part of the Israeli state (probably all, since the border with Jordan is actually one of the Jewish areas while the majority-Palestinian ones are all inland), with the Palestinians being at least offered citizenship. Such a state can quite plausibly remain democratic and majority-Jewish (though nowhere near as monolithically as current Israel, of course). Offering a national homeland for both Jews (who would form a majority) and the native peoples of the area would be more consistent in any case with the vision of Ze'ev Jabotinsky.

You realize that such a state would, nearly necessarily, have governing coalitions including "Arab" (non-Zionist) parties. And these parties would, at the very least, demand recognition of their community's equality in the joint state. Also, in such a state non-Haredi Jews will be in minority pretty soon, if not from the beginning. Both absolutely fine by me, of course, but would most Zionist Israelis be equally happy about it?

[Famous Mortimer]

Once a single state is done, it's done. No Jewish state will be reformed.

The "Zionist" left will not bring it back.

Younger leftists actually secretly support a single state already but they know it's not politically feasible to admit it.

Even the older, more establishment centre-leftists don't really care that much about being "a Jewish State" whatever that means. They mostly support it right now because of force of habit and because they're trying to triangulate and appear more nationalist than the right, who now one staters who it could be argued don't take demographics seriously.