Opinion of the Episcopal Church

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I've always found the Creed as helpful as knowing that cows go moo. As a statement of faith for the faithful it's self evident. It doesn't really need repeating at a communal level.

Creeds are a concise way of stating the belief of a congregation. Personally, I think the Nicene Creed is too narrowly focused upon Christology tho I certainly prefer it to the Athanasian Creed.  The Apostles' Creed is mine own favorite.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It'd be kind of nice if that was the case. It'd really be kind of nice.

The point of saying the Creed communally, of saying or doing anything communally or collectively or en masse or by rote, is reaffirmation. Reminding oneself what one believes is useful both psychologically and symbolically, and doing this in concert with other people reinforces the sociocultural aspect of religion (which is half the point of being religious).

I'd wager at least half of American Christians would disagree.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It'd be kind of nice if that was the case. It'd really be kind of nice.

The point of saying the Creed communally, of saying or doing anything communally or collectively or en masse or by rote, is reaffirmation. Reminding oneself what one believes is useful both psychologically and symbolically, and doing this in concert with other people reinforces the sociocultural aspect of religion (which is half the point of being religious).

I'd wager at least half of American Christians would disagree.

That's because we, as a group, are filthy casuals.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It'd be kind of nice if that was the case. It'd really be kind of nice.

The point of saying the Creed communally, of saying or doing anything communally or collectively or en masse or by rote, is reaffirmation. Reminding oneself what one believes is useful both psychologically and symbolically, and doing this in concert with other people reinforces the sociocultural aspect of religion (which is half the point of being religious).

I'd wager at least half of American Christians would disagree.

The etymology of religion literally means "binding [people] together".

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It'd be kind of nice if that was the case. It'd really be kind of nice.

The point of saying the Creed communally, of saying or doing anything communally or collectively or en masse or by rote, is reaffirmation. Reminding oneself what one believes is useful both psychologically and symbolically, and doing this in concert with other people reinforces the sociocultural aspect of religion (which is half the point of being religious).

I'd wager at least half of American Christians would disagree.

The etymology of religion literally means "binding [people] together".

Yes but for Americans that's not necessarily in a "sociocultural" sense.

[TJ in Oregon]

To elaborate, here are the reasons why I dislike the Episcopal Church:

1) Tolerance for blatant heretics and apostates. People like Bishop Spong should have been defrocked and excommunicated decades ago. I can deal with disagreements on more minor issues, but this sort of thing is non-negotiable.

2) Lawsuits against congregations attempting to leave the church.

3) They seem to be intent on abandoning the old BCP for weirder, newer stuff. I like the beauty of the old liturgy much better.

I dislike all of these things as well. The third is probably the biggest issue for me in that it was the proximate precipitating factor for why I stopped considering myself Episcopalian--the church I'd been going to for most of the past year at that point up and stopped using the Nicene Creed in its liturgy one day, and adopted a Eucharistic Prayer that was not in the BCP and was not printed in the order of service leaflet.

The horror!

The problem was that it was impossible to follow along with. (Admittedly this is a problem with Catholic churches I've been to as well, along with many, many other honestly extremely disappointing mechanical and aesthetic problems.)

I'm a little perplexed at this. Is your main beef simply that they didn't have it typed out in a booklet somewhere? I guess I don't understand why that should matter at all. Do you have hearing problems that necessitate it being written down for you to understand? My parish back in Ohio has books with everything in them to follow along with the readings and even the rest of the Mass and no one ever looks at the Eucharistic prayers in the book. Heck, I don't even look at it for the readings; I'd rather hear them than read them.

From the Catholic perspective, making up a Eucharistic prayer would be far, far beyond the pale and call into question the validity of the consecration. Is your old church memorialist? If so, I suppose that would change the priorities a lot. But if not, yikes.

[TJ in Oregon]

It'd be kind of nice if that was the case. It'd really be kind of nice.

The point of saying the Creed communally, of saying or doing anything communally or collectively or en masse or by rote, is reaffirmation. Reminding oneself what one believes is useful both psychologically and symbolically, and doing this in concert with other people reinforces the sociocultural aspect of religion (which is half the point of being religious).

I agree that it should be said and is reflective of the point of being religious. However, I disagree that it is primarily to reinforce the socialculture aspect of religion but is instead primarily to reinforce its contents. If one were to ask the people in attendance "Why are we here?", reciting the Nicene Creed would be one way of answering it. I think it's important to repeat such things semi-regularly to remind ourselves of that.

[afleitch]

It'd be kind of nice if that was the case. It'd really be kind of nice.

The point of saying the Creed communally, of saying or doing anything communally or collectively or en masse or by rote, is reaffirmation. Reminding oneself what one believes is useful both psychologically and symbolically, and doing this in concert with other people reinforces the sociocultural aspect of religion (which is half the point of being religious).

The Creed may be a reminder of what one believes, but it doesn't really encompass why one believes it. If anything it's the tacit acknowledgment of the congregation that 'we accord with what you (with 'you' being the body of the church or body) define as our articles of faith.' It's sort of the very first mission statement that, if you roll it back to the Roman creed is a countenance to Arianism. So for me, it's always been (not intentionally) but the congregant agreeing with the house rules if you will, rather than being a personal profession of faith.

It's ritual. And 'not being there' might be jarring to those who find comfort in that, but it seems understandably superfluous to me.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

To elaborate, here are the reasons why I dislike the Episcopal Church:

1) Tolerance for blatant heretics and apostates. People like Bishop Spong should have been defrocked and excommunicated decades ago. I can deal with disagreements on more minor issues, but this sort of thing is non-negotiable.

2) Lawsuits against congregations attempting to leave the church.

3) They seem to be intent on abandoning the old BCP for weirder, newer stuff. I like the beauty of the old liturgy much better.

I dislike all of these things as well. The third is probably the biggest issue for me in that it was the proximate precipitating factor for why I stopped considering myself Episcopalian--the church I'd been going to for most of the past year at that point up and stopped using the Nicene Creed in its liturgy one day, and adopted a Eucharistic Prayer that was not in the BCP and was not printed in the order of service leaflet.

The horror!

The problem was that it was impossible to follow along with. (Admittedly this is a problem with Catholic churches I've been to as well, along with many, many other honestly extremely disappointing mechanical and aesthetic problems.)

I'm a little perplexed at this. Is your main beef simply that they didn't have it typed out in a booklet somewhere? I guess I don't understand why that should matter at all. Do you have hearing problems that necessitate it being written down for you to understand? My parish back in Ohio has books with everything in them to follow along with the readings and even the rest of the Mass and no one ever looks at the Eucharistic prayers in the book. Heck, I don't even look at it for the readings; I'd rather hear them than read them.

I guess this is just a cultural difference between people who are used to Anglicanism and cradle Catholics. Anglicanism, at least Episcopalianism in the churches I'd (previously) always been to, is very textual. I know plenty of people who read along.

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No. It is not memorialist. If it were, I would be less concerned about the technical liturgical ins and outs, but I also would not go to a church with a theology that I knew to be memorialist in the first place.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Anglicanism, at least Episcopalianism in the churches I'd (previously) always been to, is very textual. I know plenty of people who read along.

Yes, this sounds right. Of course its an 'English' Protestant thing rather than an exclusively Anglican tendency.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It'd be kind of nice if that was the case. It'd really be kind of nice.

The point of saying the Creed communally, of saying or doing anything communally or collectively or en masse or by rote, is reaffirmation. Reminding oneself what one believes is useful both psychologically and symbolically, and doing this in concert with other people reinforces the sociocultural aspect of religion (which is half the point of being religious).

I'd wager at least half of American Christians would disagree.

The etymology of religion literally means "binding [people] together".

Yes but for Americans that's not necessarily in a "sociocultural" sense.

The point is that religion is a sociocultural process in and of itself. That even applies to your weird subculture.

[angus]

Heretics. And even not that cool ones.

pretty much that's my thought.  Not that I'm a religious scholar, but my impression is that it's basically Catholic-lite, and purulently so.  

I have attended Episcopalian mass a few times, although it has probably been at least 25 years, but my distinct impression is that the Episcopal Church is basically the Americanization of the Church of England.  I could be wrong, and I'd welcome any attempt to correct my misapprehension.

I don't really think there are heretics, because I don't think the political organization that is the Roman Church as any claim on the ultimate religion, but I do think that Episcopalianism is just a very slight modification of it, but with less political power and with none of the "cool"ness of the modern American flavors of Christianity, which features Joel "God wants you to be rich" Osteen.  So I think I understand your tongue-in-cheek remark and I think that I mostly agree with it.

[RI]

In light of the imminent schism in the Anglican communion, the Episcopal Church should accept the irreconcilability of its schizophrenic nature and dissolve as it currently exists. The more conservative elements can join with the Cathodox while the liberal elements form their own church or ally with liberal Lutherans and the like. Further, the Church of England really needs to get its head on straight as to whether they're an apostolic church or not. Really, their whole church is a pretty big mess right now.

[Lechasseur]

To elaborate, here are the reasons why I dislike the Episcopal Church:

1) Tolerance for blatant heretics and apostates. People like Bishop Spong should have been defrocked and excommunicated decades ago. I can deal with disagreements on more minor issues, but this sort of thing is non-negotiable.

2) Lawsuits against congregations attempting to leave the church.

3) They seem to be intent on abandoning the old BCP for weirder, newer stuff. I like the beauty of the old liturgy much better.

This

[Lechasseur]

In light of the imminent schism in the Anglican communion, the Episcopal Church should accept the irreconcilability of its schizophrenic nature and dissolve as it currently exists. The more conservative elements can join with the Cathodox while the liberal elements form their own church or ally with liberal Lutherans and the like. Further, the Church of England really needs to get its head on straight as to whether they're an apostolic church or not. Really, their whole church is a pretty big mess right now.

And this