question for IndyTx

[freepcrusher]

you live in the Houston area if I recall - what is the word on the street about the 99 loop? I've looked at a map of what it's supposed to look like and it looks like it might be the longest beltway in the world.

Is there any opposition from environmentalists and the like (to the extent there are any in TX) that it's going to promote further sprawl/air pollution etc?

[jimrtex]

you live in the Houston area if I recall - what is the word on the street about the 99 loop? I've looked at a map of what it's supposed to look like and it looks like it might be the longest beltway in the world.

Is there any opposition from environmentalists and the like (to the extent there are any in TX) that it's going to promote further sprawl/air pollution etc?

It is ordinarily referred to as the Grand Parkway. Portions are tolled, and in those areas the SH 99 designation might only refer to feeder roads.

The portion from I-10 (Katy Freeway) to US-59 (Southwest Freeway) was completed about 15 years ago. The portion north from I-10 (Katy Freeway) to US 290 (Northwest Freeway) was completed a few years ago. It is a toll road.

The northern segments, from US 290 (Northwest Freeway) to TX 249 (Tomball Parkway), I-45 (North Freeway), and US 59 (Eastex Freeway) will open within the next couple of months. It is also tolled.

The portion around the south side of Houston might not have the population to support a toll route. It will likely be promoted as an alternative hurricane evacuation route. TX 6 is at grade and is not controlled access, which forces most of the people from Galveston up I-45 into Houston.

Similarly, the east portion probably doesn't have the traffic. It might be promoted as providing transportation from the Ship Channel/Port of Houston to US-59 (I-69) and (I-45).

[cinyc]

Wikipedia claims construction is fully funded for all but one segment that would go through Kemah, so most, if not all, of TX-99 will likely get built.  It won't be fully complete until next decade, though.  At the rate Houston is growing, by that time, some of the areas that are currently sparsely populated might be in the process of getting built up, anyway.

[Ebsy]

Building more highways does nothing to reduce congestion, and in fact only exacerbates the problem.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Building more highways does nothing to reduce congestion, and in fact only exacerbates the problem.

You really believe that myth?

If Highway A has enough demand that 100 cars would use it to get where they need to be.. but capacity is 25... and you expand it to 50...  What happens?  Traffic doubles but congestion remains the same.

You perpetuate a myth that flies in the face of common sense and only makes since to mid 2000s anti-sprawl college kids.

[jimrtex]

Wikipedia claims construction is fully funded for all but one segment that would go through Kemah, so most, if not all, of TX-99 will likely get built.  It won't be fully complete until next decade, though.  At the rate Houston is growing, by that time, some of the areas that are currently sparsely populated might be in the process of getting built up, anyway.

I did some looking on the TXDOT website, and found some information on segments H and I-2, which are around the eastern part of the loop from US-59 to I-10. It is supposed to be out for bid as a land acquisition-design-build-maintain (for 25 years) contract, where the contractor will do the complete project. The project will be funded from TXDOT toll revenue bonds. So when tolls are collected, they will go to the bond-holder to pay off the bond, while the money from the sale of the bonds goes to the contractor.

It is a way to get around opposition to private toll roads. The state retains ownership.

This portion is being built as a two-lane road, with occasional passing areas where it goes on to the ultimate four-lane divided highway. It will have overpasses over the cross-roads and future roads, and on and off-ramps. The contractor is required to build a minimum amount of throw-away roadway.

So a lot of this segment will be to establish the route, and acquire right of way, and will then continue to be expanded as traffic builds, or development occurs.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Wikipedia claims construction is fully funded for all but one segment that would go through Kemah, so most, if not all, of TX-99 will likely get built.  It won't be fully complete until next decade, though.  At the rate Houston is growing, by that time, some of the areas that are currently sparsely populated might be in the process of getting built up, anyway.

I did some looking on the TXDOT website, and found some information on segments H and I-2, which are around the eastern part of the loop from US-59 to I-10. It is supposed to be out for bid as a land acquisition-design-build-maintain (for 25 years) contract, where the contractor will do the complete project. The project will be funded from TXDOT toll revenue bonds. So when tolls are collected, they will go to the bond-holder to pay off the bond, while the money from the sale of the bonds goes to the contractor.

It is a way to get around opposition to private toll roads. The state retains ownership.

This portion is being built as a two-lane road, with occasional passing areas where it goes on to the ultimate four-lane divided highway. It will have overpasses over the cross-roads and future roads, and on and off-ramps. The contractor is required to build a minimum amount of throw-away roadway.

So a lot of this segment will be to establish the route, and acquire right of way, and will then continue to be expanded as traffic builds, or development occurs.

I think that is a prudent way to run toll roads.  Sell the bonds to raise the cash... pay for the road with said cash.  Charge a toll to repay the bondholder plus some interest.  Then remove the toll.

[muon2]

Wikipedia claims construction is fully funded for all but one segment that would go through Kemah, so most, if not all, of TX-99 will likely get built.  It won't be fully complete until next decade, though.  At the rate Houston is growing, by that time, some of the areas that are currently sparsely populated might be in the process of getting built up, anyway.

I did some looking on the TXDOT website, and found some information on segments H and I-2, which are around the eastern part of the loop from US-59 to I-10. It is supposed to be out for bid as a land acquisition-design-build-maintain (for 25 years) contract, where the contractor will do the complete project. The project will be funded from TXDOT toll revenue bonds. So when tolls are collected, they will go to the bond-holder to pay off the bond, while the money from the sale of the bonds goes to the contractor.

It is a way to get around opposition to private toll roads. The state retains ownership.

This portion is being built as a two-lane road, with occasional passing areas where it goes on to the ultimate four-lane divided highway. It will have overpasses over the cross-roads and future roads, and on and off-ramps. The contractor is required to build a minimum amount of throw-away roadway.

So a lot of this segment will be to establish the route, and acquire right of way, and will then continue to be expanded as traffic builds, or development occurs.

I think that is a prudent way to run toll roads.  Sell the bonds to raise the cash... pay for the road with said cash.  Charge a toll to repay the bondholder plus some interest.  Then remove the toll.

What often happens is that by the time the original construction bonds are paid the road needs major repair. So, the tolls are maintained to cover those expenses. If it all goes to a common road fund its hard to distinguish where the tolls exactly go.

In IL the toll highways are run by an autonomous authority. They get no state tax dollars and have to build and operate the system from tolls alone. There are statutory limits about the use of their rights of way (recently changed to allow passenger rail), but the tollway board sets the rates without direct oversight by the state government.

[Ebsy]

Building more highways does nothing to reduce congestion, and in fact only exacerbates the problem.

You really believe that myth?

If Highway A has enough demand that 100 cars would use it to get where they need to be.. but capacity is 25... and you expand it to 50...  What happens?  Traffic doubles but congestion remains the same.

You perpetuate a myth that flies in the face of common sense and only makes since to mid 2000s anti-sprawl college kids.

Common sense has nothing to do with it. The evidence is firmly on the side of the "anti-sprawl college kids." Building highways has only increased white flight and lengthened commutes, leading to more congestion and more traffic. It's an endless cycle of building more, unneeded highways, and then the people who moved out to the suburbs complaining that there is too much traffic so we have to build even more highways.

[cinyc]

Wikipedia claims construction is fully funded for all but one segment that would go through Kemah, so most, if not all, of TX-99 will likely get built.  It won't be fully complete until next decade, though.  At the rate Houston is growing, by that time, some of the areas that are currently sparsely populated might be in the process of getting built up, anyway.

I did some looking on the TXDOT website, and found some information on segments H and I-2, which are around the eastern part of the loop from US-59 to I-10. It is supposed to be out for bid as a land acquisition-design-build-maintain (for 25 years) contract, where the contractor will do the complete project. The project will be funded from TXDOT toll revenue bonds. So when tolls are collected, they will go to the bond-holder to pay off the bond, while the money from the sale of the bonds goes to the contractor.

It is a way to get around opposition to private toll roads. The state retains ownership.

This portion is being built as a two-lane road, with occasional passing areas where it goes on to the ultimate four-lane divided highway. It will have overpasses over the cross-roads and future roads, and on and off-ramps. The contractor is required to build a minimum amount of throw-away roadway.

So a lot of this segment will be to establish the route, and acquire right of way, and will then continue to be expanded as traffic builds, or development occurs.

So they are building what is called a Super 2 instead of a full four-lane limited access highway in that area, while purchasing all the land necessary for future expansion.  I assume they will also build frontage roads where required (which, as I understand Texas law, is more extensive than elsewhere).  Then, when Houston sprawls eastward, they build two new lanes so that opposing traffic is separated and vehicles can safely pass everywhere. 

[jimrtex]

Wikipedia claims construction is fully funded for all but one segment that would go through Kemah, so most, if not all, of TX-99 will likely get built.  It won't be fully complete until next decade, though.  At the rate Houston is growing, by that time, some of the areas that are currently sparsely populated might be in the process of getting built up, anyway.

I did some looking on the TXDOT website, and found some information on segments H and I-2, which are around the eastern part of the loop from US-59 to I-10. It is supposed to be out for bid as a land acquisition-design-build-maintain (for 25 years) contract, where the contractor will do the complete project. The project will be funded from TXDOT toll revenue bonds. So when tolls are collected, they will go to the bond-holder to pay off the bond, while the money from the sale of the bonds goes to the contractor.

It is a way to get around opposition to private toll roads. The state retains ownership.

This portion is being built as a two-lane road, with occasional passing areas where it goes on to the ultimate four-lane divided highway. It will have overpasses over the cross-roads and future roads, and on and off-ramps. The contractor is required to build a minimum amount of throw-away roadway.

So a lot of this segment will be to establish the route, and acquire right of way, and will then continue to be expanded as traffic builds, or development occurs.

So they are building what is called a Super 2 instead of a full four-lane limited access highway in that area, while purchasing all the land necessary for future expansion.  I assume they will also build frontage roads where required (which, as I understand Texas law, is more extensive than elsewhere).  Then, when Houston sprawls eastward, they build two new lanes so that opposing traffic is separated and vehicles can safely pass everywhere. 

I don't think that providing feeders is a state law, but rather (former) standard TXDOT practice.

FRONTAGE ROADS IN TEXAS: A Comprehensive Assessment. (PDF)

As I understand it, the design will be for an eventual four-lane, limited-access highway, but for most of the length, only two lanes will be be built, which would be either south-bound or north-bound lanes of the eventual alignment. In certain areas, particularly at the northern and southern ends, it will be built out to four lanes. In other places it will be built as four lanes to provide passing zones. One direction will switch over to a divided portion.

The project calls for intermittent feeders, which I suspect will be near the cross-overs, essentially permitting diamond interchanges to be lengthened out, so you aren't coming off an exit ramp with a stoplight at the end.

[freepcrusher]

to reiterate what ebsy said - i think that building new loop roads is sort of the malthusian argument. By that I mean that the more you build, people will just consume more land which will negate any extra roads built or something along those lines

[jimrtex]

you live in the Houston area if I recall - what is the word on the street about the 99 loop? I've looked at a map of what it's supposed to look like and it looks like it might be the longest beltway in the world.

Is there any opposition from environmentalists and the like (to the extent there are any in TX) that it's going to promote further sprawl/air pollution etc?

The two next segments from US 290 to US 59 (Eastex Freeway) opened on Friday, two days before they were scheduled to open. They're toll free until the 15th.

[Cubby]

If they want to complete Route 99 on the eastern side while maintaining a circular shape on the map they'll have to build a tunnel under Trinity Bay from Beach City to League City. There's too many ships in that area for it to be a bridge, I assume.

Houston gets three beltways around it while New York City doesn't even get one! The NYC region has been waiting 50 years for a tunnel under Long Island Sound to connect I-287 in Westchester County with the Wantagh/Meadowbrook Parkways in Nassau (final stop- Jones Beach).

[jimrtex]

If they want to complete Route 99 on the eastern side while maintaining a circular shape on the map they'll have to build a tunnel under Trinity Bay from Beach City to League City. There's too many ships in that area for it to be a bridge, I assume.

Houston gets three beltways around it while New York City doesn't even get one! The NYC region has been waiting 50 years for a tunnel under Long Island Sound to connect I-287 in Westchester County with the Wantagh/Meadowbrook Parkways in Nassau (final stop- Jones Beach).

Grand Parkway Association

Segment I-2 was one of the first segments built. It comes down from I-10 to the west of Beach City and by the Baytown steel plant and then heads west to hit SH 146 just north of the Fred Hartman Bridge..

I think parts of this are just the feeder roads, so not quite up to full controlled access standards. If you use Google, Mapquest, or Bing, to route from Winnie to La Porte, they all seem to prefer using SH 146 entirely. If you force the route to TX-99 it comes out as equally fast, though a bit longer.

Once the east segment of SH-99 is built, this might see a lot of truck traffic to and from the Port of Houston. There is a really big container facility south of La Porte, intended to handle larger ships after the Panama Canal is expanded.

Currently the plan on the south side is for the Grand Parkway to only go to the Gulf Freeway (I-45). A feasibility study has been made for Segment A that would go to SH 146, which runs along the bay north to the bridge. If that segment is build, I suspect that SH 146 would also be designated as SH 99, so that it would form a complete loop.

Note that conventionally, Trinity Bay, is only the part of Galveston Bay east of Beach City down to Smith Point (the estuary of the Trinity River).

There has at least been the concept of a bridge/causeway from Texas City to the Bolivar Peninsula, reducing the need for the Galveston-Bolivar ferry. Galveston Bay is very shallow, so that for example, that I-45 to Galveston is styled a causeway rather than a bridge. You would be need a long and high span over the ship channel, and then build the rest as a causeway which could build up to meet the height of the span over the ship channel. There probably would also have to be higher spans over the Intracoastal Waterway.

It so happens that today I took a tour of new portion of SH 99, plus both the complete I-610 Loop, and the Sam Houston Beltway (SH , for a total distance of 250 miles.

I was wrong about it being opened to the Eastex Freeway (US 59/I-69). It is currently only opened to the North Freeway (I-45). The segment to the the Eastex will open sometime in late March.

The portion I drove on from US 290 to I-45 was totally finished as far as traffic was concerned. They were doing work such as putting fencing around detention ponds, etc.

If the Nassau-Westchester tunnel is completed, it could have an effect on redistricting. You could probably make an adjustment to limit how far a district comes up out of the Bronx. Currently, you start from Montauk Point and keep drawing districts until you get into Queens. You can do all kinds of weird things among the boroughs of NYC, but then you have a fixed amount coming north which you have no control. A Nassau-Westchester district would make this a lot more flexible.