Dutch referendum: No wins 63-37

[2952-0-0]

http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/050520105502.udjrgesm

It's interesting to note that the most left-wing country in Europe (and maybe the world) is so against this.

[minionofmidas]

Netherlands the most left wing country in the world? Hardly.

[2952-0-0]

Netherlands the most left wing country in the world? Hardly.

Maybe Sweden overall but Netherlands is at least socially most left-wing.

[minionofmidas]

Netherlands the most left wing country in the world? Hardly.

Maybe Sweden overall but Netherlands is at least socially most left-wing.

It's mostly marijuana that creates that image.
It's not really true.

[Hatman 🍁]

Netherlands the most left wing country in the world? Hardly.

Maybe Sweden overall but Netherlands is at least socially most left-wing.

It's mostly marijuana that creates that image.
It's not really true.

And same-sex marriage? I always got the impression the Netherlands and Belgium were the most libertarian countries in the world (outside Somalia ) and Scandanavia had the most socialist countries.

What make the Netherlands not so left wing? I never got the impression it was Conservative from being there. Maybe it's the whole anti-immigration thing?

[minionofmidas]

Netherlands the most left wing country in the world? Hardly.

Maybe Sweden overall but Netherlands is at least socially most left-wing.

It's mostly marijuana that creates that image.
It's not really true.

And same-sex marriage? I always got the impression the Netherlands and Belgium were the most libertarian countries in the world (outside Somalia ) and Scandanavia had the most socialist countries.

What make the Netherlands not so left wing? I never got the impression it was Conservative from being there. Maybe it's the whole anti-immigration thing?

Well Amsterdam is certainly not Conservative...
Same-sex marriage was introduced in Scandinavia at about the same time as in the Netherlands. (And in France and Germany at about the same time as in Belgium...thou' we don't call it "marriage"...)
The Netherlands have some pretty bible-beltish corners - more so than anywhere else in Northwest Europe, actually. It's also got old layers of Catholic-Protestant rivalry worked deep into the national subconscious. Which is in part why governments, for a hundred years, have almost always been pretty big tent coalitions. Dutch "official" politics have, for a long long while, been largely about compromise and tolerance - which sort of opened the door to that left-libertarian streak you (and most people) are perceiving.

[Bono]

Amsterdam is a pretty socially liberal city, but most areas, especially in the Calvinist Bible Belt, are pretty socially conservative.

[Gustaf]

The Netherlands aren't very left-winged when it comes to economy, at least not by European standards. Calling Scandinavia socialist is going a little too far I think. We're rather very liberal I'd say.

[Bono]

The Netherlands aren't very left-winged when it comes to economy, at least not by European standards. Calling Scandinavia socialist is going a little too far I think. We're rather very liberal I'd say.

Would you classify as a classical liberal nation a nation whose top income tax rate is 60% and where government expenditures by share of the GDP amount to 59?
(and where the private sector generates no net jobs since 1950, and 1 fourth of the workforce did not work in 2003 but lived on various kinds of public welfare programs, such as, pre-pension schemes, unemployment benefits, sick-leave programs, etc.)?

[minionofmidas]

He was using the US definition. I think.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Calling Scandinavia socialist is going a little too far I think.

Depends how you define socialist I guess.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I beleive the current Dutch government is a center-right coalition. And they have troops in Iraq. It's not that leftist.

I'm kind of under the impression it's what you would basically get if you threw San Francisco down in the middle of rural Georgia and carved a small country around it. San Francisco would dominate it, and it would appear very leftist because of that. But that's not the true case.

[Hatman 🍁]

Where is the Dutch bible belt? When I went there, we only spent half our time in Amsterdam, and half in the small town of Zutphen, which is in Gelderland. Another liberal thing I picked up in the Netherlands, is that you cant get "officialy" married in a church, you have to do it at city hall.

[minionofmidas]

Where is the Dutch bible belt? When I went there, we only spent half our time in Amsterdam, and half in the small town of Zutphen, which is in Gelderland. Another liberal thing I picked up in the Netherlands, is that you cant get "officialy" married in a church, you have to do it at city hall.

Well, that's true pretty much everywhere in Europe. A church will only marry you if you*re already married.
I wouldn`t consider that all that liberal - more like statist. Although it is a result of the classical liberals`struggles with the Catholic church, back in the 19th century.

As for the Bible Belt - it's not really a belt. The Netherlands has several small pockets where people belong to fundamentalist splinter groups off the Dutch Calvinist church, are very devout, refuse to get inoculated, and vote for their own parties, the CU and the SGP. The latter being the more out-there one. At the second-to-last elections (not sure about the last ones) they polled below 1% almost everywhere but won three townships.

[Bono]

Where is the Dutch bible belt? When I went there, we only spent half our time in Amsterdam, and half in the small town of Zutphen, which is in Gelderland. Another liberal thing I picked up in the Netherlands, is that you cant get "officialy" married in a church, you have to do it at city hall.

Well, that's true pretty much everywhere in Europe. A church will only marry you if you*re already married.
I wouldn`t consider that all that liberal - more like statist. Although it is a result of the classical liberals`struggles with the Catholic church, back in the 19th century.

As for the Bible Belt - it's not really a belt. The Netherlands has several small pockets where people belong to fundamentalist splinter groups off the Dutch Calvinist church, are very devout, refuse to get inoculated, and vote for their own parties, the CU and the SGP. The latter being the more out-there one. At the second-to-last elections (not sure about the last ones) they polled below 1% almost everywhere but won three townships.

You can get married by the RCC in here, officially, and im not sure, but i think a new law allowed other religions to do it too.

[Hatman 🍁]

Where is the Dutch bible belt? When I went there, we only spent half our time in Amsterdam, and half in the small town of Zutphen, which is in Gelderland. Another liberal thing I picked up in the Netherlands, is that you cant get "officialy" married in a church, you have to do it at city hall.

Well, that's true pretty much everywhere in Europe. A church will only marry you if you*re already married.
I wouldn`t consider that all that liberal - more like statist. Although it is a result of the classical liberals`struggles with the Catholic church, back in the 19th century.

As for the Bible Belt - it's not really a belt. The Netherlands has several small pockets where people belong to fundamentalist splinter groups off the Dutch Calvinist church, are very devout, refuse to get inoculated, and vote for their own parties, the CU and the SGP. The latter being the more out-there one. At the second-to-last elections (not sure about the last ones) they polled below 1% almost everywhere but won three townships.

You can get married by the RCC in here, officially, and im not sure, but i think a new law allowed other religions to do it too.

That's something that will never happen in North America.  Lewis, where are they Calvinist areas, I am intrigued.

[minionofmidas]

As I said, they're sort of scattered...absolutely can`t find a link right now to Netherlands results by township, sorry.
Only thing I find is by province...which does not to any extent give an idea of the SGP vote`s concentration.

Drenthe CU 2.9, SGP 0.3
Flevoland CU 3.6, SGP 2.1
Friesland CU 3.2, SGP 0.4
Gelderland CU 2.5, SGP 3.0
Groningen CU 4.4, SGP 0.3
Limburg CU 0.3, SGP 0.1
Noord-Brabant CU 0.6, SGP 0.4
Noord-Holland CU 1.0, SGP 0.2
Overijssel CU 4.4, SGP 2.2
Utrecht CU 3.1, SGP 2.0
Zeeland CU 2.9, SGP 7.7
Zuid-Holland CU 2.2, SGP 2.6

[Angel of Death]

I believe the word you're looking for is "municipality".

[Gustaf]

The Netherlands aren't very left-winged when it comes to economy, at least not by European standards. Calling Scandinavia socialist is going a little too far I think. We're rather very liberal I'd say.

Would you classify as a classical liberal nation a nation whose top income tax rate is 60% and where government expenditures by share of the GDP amount to 59?
(and where the private sector generates no net jobs since 1950, and 1 fourth of the workforce did not work in 2003 but lived on various kinds of public welfare programs, such as, pre-pension schemes, unemployment benefits, sick-leave programs, etc.)?

Yes, since I'm a complete idiot.

On the other hand there is an out-side possiblity I meant something else. Consider it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

There actually are places in the US of mostly Dutch ancestry similar to what Lewis is describing as well. Check out Northwest Iowa.

[Beet]

So the constitution is going down in the U.K., the Netherlands, and France.

"Europe" is finished.

[minionofmidas]

I believe the word you're looking for is "municipality".

Some of em are pretty largeish...I tried to make myself understood.

[afleitch]

One word: Turkey. Many are against the constitution for that reason. People don't want an populus Muslim country in the EU. If it joined it would automatically become the largest state and the migration flood gates would be opened. It's not even European. It has a toe hold on Europe due to a simple treaty.

[minionofmidas]

One word: Turkey. Many are against the constitution for that reason. People don't want an populus Muslim country in the EU. If it joined it would automatically become the largest state and the migration flood gates would be opened. It's not even European. It has a toe hold on Europe due to a simple treaty.

Germany is larger. Not to mention that immigration from Turkey is pretty easy already, at least compared to just about anywhere else.

[afleitch]

Germany's population is falling and Turkey's is rising.  Turkey will overtake Germany within less than 20 years. And i said migration not immigration. I'm talking about economic migration from Turkey to other EU states as is permitted under current EU law. There is nothing to stop them leaving Turkey and settling in EU member states if they join because migration to EU states becomes easier once you join the EU.