Canadian by-elections, 2016 (next event: Quebec provincial byelections [Dec 5])

[Hatman 🍁]

Is using a bicycle on the Sabbath forbidden?

[DC Al Fine]

From what I gather, people don't like the fundamentalism of their orthodox Jewish neighbours (big families, insularity, misogyny, etc.) and have taken it out at the ballot box. I agree with their fears of course, but the whole thing seems unconstitutional.

And of course, by expressing their frustrations in this particular way, the whole thing comes off as mean spirited at best, and hateful and anti-Semitic at worst. Not the biggest PR coup. I know as an outsider, it appears to fulfill my worst stereotypes of Quebec.

Is using a bicycle on the Sabbath forbidden?

From what I gather, yes. For an ultra orthodox Jew, riding a bicycle would be forbidden on the same grounds that driving a car would be.

[DC Al Fine]

Why doesnt the Quebec government offer to give the Hassidim a plot of land in northern Quebec and have them build a Hutterite style closed community where everyone is walking distance to the synagogue and where they don't have to be in contact with the rest of society. None of them have jobs - they just pray and study all day anyways - so what does it matter to them if they are on the shores of James Bay or in the middle of Outremont...?

Seems to me that the problem with these religious freaks is that they want to live like an isolated religious sect/cult in the middle of a densely populated diverse urban area - its never going to work. Why can't they be like the Amish or the Hutterites and isolate themselves  to a remote place where they can live as they please with no contact with the rest of the world?

Why should Jews move if they clash with mainstream society? Are they not citizens?

[DavidB.]

This legislation is obviously a big disgrace and I don't understand how issues like these are allowed to be on the ballot anyway, since freedom of religion is a human right and minority rights shouldn't be on the ballot -- and I know this referendum was technically about all houses of worship but everybody knows this was a referendum on synagogues. I felt Canada was the last country where something like tolerance was still a thing, but I turned out to be horribly wrong.

Is using a bicycle on the Sabbath forbidden?

Unfortunately, yes. Based on the reasoning that if it breaks, you will be inclined to fix it, and that is forbidden. I kid you not. Additionally, outside an "eruv", it is considered carrying and that is forbidden on shabbat too. The biggest struggle in the life of a Dutch Jew, sad!

And yes, Adam is right that these people are haredi ("ultra orthodox").

The "parking space" excuse is basically the biggest joke; it's always used in opposition to new mosques here in the Netherlands too, and it basically means "we don't want all these strange looking, strangely dressing individuals in our neighborhood". And while people may feel that way, that is not an argument decision makers should take seriously, especially when the issue revolves around religious rights of minorities.

Why doesnt the Quebec government offer to give the Hassidim a plot of land in northern Quebec and have them build a Hutterite style closed community where everyone is walking distance to the synagogue and where they don't have to be in contact with the rest of society. None of them have jobs - they just pray and study all day anyways - so what does it matter to them if they are on the shores of James Bay or in the middle of Outremont...?

Seems to me that the problem with these religious freaks is that they want to live like an isolated religious sect/cult in the middle of a densely populated diverse urban area - its never going to work. Why can't they be like the Amish or the Hutterites and isolate themselves  to a remote place where they can live as they please with no contact with the rest of the world?

wtf

[ag]

Is using a bicycle on the Sabbath forbidden?

Pretty much.

I mean, I guess, you could sit on it, but either picking it up, carrying it or moving it in any other way is, most likely, a no-no.

[ag]

This legislation is obviously a big disgrace and I don't understand how issues like these are allowed to be on the ballot anyway, since freedom of religion is a human right and minority rights shouldn't be on the ballot

One issue we fully agree on.

[MaxQue]

This legislation is obviously a big disgrace and I don't understand how issues like these are allowed to be on the ballot anyway, since freedom of religion is a human right and minority rights shouldn't be on the ballot -- and I know this referendum was technically about all houses of worship but everybody knows this was a referendum on synagogues.

Well, I would say the referendum was a demand from the Jew community.

The borough council passed a law banning worship places on Bernard Avenue, but, as it is a planning law, local citizens (living in zones affected by the change and those contiguous to them) can petition a referendum on it (with a petition with 10% of the registered electors of the zone). So, they collected signatures and forced a referendum (which they lost).

They are probably going to court, now.

[DavidB.]

Well, I would say the referendum was a demand from the Jew community.

The borough council passed a law banning worship places on Bernard Avenue, but, as it is a planning law, local citizens (living in zones affected by the change and those contiguous to them) can petition a referendum on it (with a petition with 10% of the registered electors of the zone). So, they collected signatures and forced a referendum (which they lost).

They are probably going to court, now.

Oh, I didn't know, thanks for clarifying Well, I cannot blame them for trying to change the status-quo, though I guess it was a bit naive to expect the others in the neighborhood to, you know, respect the Jews' freedom of worship. Not going to engage in an exercise of blaming the victim, though. Shame on the elected politicians that have kept this law in place and necessitated the referendum initiative.

Apart from that... "Jew community"?

One issue we fully agree on.

More things, I'm afraid... I've become such a liberal, at least compared to my views before... more similar to American Jews. Would not write some of the things I wrote last summer anymore. You can attribute that change to Trump. But my Zionism hasn't changed a bit

[MaxQue]

Well, I would say the referendum was a demand from the Jew community.

The borough council passed a law banning worship places on Bernard Avenue, but, as it is a planning law, local citizens (living in zones affected by the change and those contiguous to them) can petition a referendum on it (with a petition with 10% of the registered electors of the zone). So, they collected signatures and forced a referendum (which they lost).

They are probably going to court, now.

Oh, I didn't know, thanks for clarifying Well, I cannot blame them for trying to change the status-quo, though I guess it was a bit naive to expect the others in the neighborhood to, you know, respect the Jews' freedom of worship. Not going to engage in an exercise of blaming the victim, though. Shame on the elected politicians that have kept this law in place and necessitated the referendum initiative.

Apart from that... "Jew community"?

Well, the petition drive was openly organized by the Hassidim community leaders. They have spokepersons and usually speak as a common voice on issues involving the community.

EDIT: Oh, the issue is "Jew community" instead of "Jewish community"? Well, English isn't my mother tongue, to me, it's "communauté juive" in French, usually, so it's more an English error than any intent.

[DavidB.]

Oh, the issue is "Jew community" instead of "Jewish community"? Well, English isn't my mother tongue, to me, it's "communauté juive" in French, usually, so it's more an English error than any intent.

I tend to forget that, sorry for the emoji. "Jew" as an adjective has a rather pejorative connotation. I was sure you weren't going for that, but I still couldn't refrain from responding to it.

[MaxQue]

Oh, the issue is "Jew community" instead of "Jewish community"? Well, English isn't my mother tongue, to me, it's "communauté juive" in French, usually, so it's more an English error than any intent.

I tend to forget that, sorry for the emoji. "Jew" as an adjective has a rather pejorative connotation. I was sure you weren't going for that, but I still couldn't refrain from responding to it.

Well, in French, it's Jew for both the name and the adjective. Another note on your post (than I just noticed), than it wasn't an attempt to change the status quo from the Hassidim, it was rather an attempt to block the by-law changes.

Politically, there is no options really. Federal government has no power over planning. Montreal City can change a borough law (for 2 years, any renewal needs a 2/3 majority), but, as it would be a change from the new status quo, the anti-synagogue crowd can collect signatures and force another referendum to block the new change.

Provincial government can ban cities from banning worhship places in planning zones, but that won't happen, because there is plenty of reasons to curtain it (here, my city (like most) bans churches from residential areas, because it would be totally out of place on a small residential street). Usual rule in Quebec is than worship places are in commercial areas/downtowns/important streets/industrial parks.

[ag]

Usual rule in Quebec is than worship places are in commercial areas/downtowns/important streets/industrial parks.

Well, that is, indeed, a problem for the people who have to walk to their places of worship. Considering that this is Outremont, I have no doubt that this is not, really, anti-semitism - most of those who voted against the synagogues are, probably, Jewish anyway. But this is one area where I strongly disagree with my fellow secular Jews: whatever our personal attitude to religion (whether of the Hassidic, proper Misnaged, or whatever other variety), it is wrong to make its practice more uncomfortable than the faithful themselves make it.

[King of Kensington]

There are virtually no secular Jews in Outremont.  The Mile End and Outremont were the heart of Jewish Montreal until the 1950s - then the bulk of the pre-war Jewish community moved out. Hasidic Jews moved in and today the Jewish population in Outremont is almost entirely Hasidic.

Outremont is basically: 1) francophone professionals and intellectuals and 2.) Hasidic Jews.  

[ag]

There are virtually no secular Jews in Outremont.  The Mile End and Outremont were the heart of Jewish Montreal until the 1950s - then the bulk of the pre-war Jewish community moved out. Hasidic Jews moved in and today the Jewish population in Outremont is almost entirely Hasidic.

Outremont is basically: 1) francophone professionals and intellectuals and 2.) Hasidic Jews.  

Well, that only makes it worse.

Basically, as far as the ultra-religious Jews are conserned, a prohibition on synagogues is a prohibition of residence. If synagogues can only be built in commercial areas, that means those people can only live in commercial areas. And, I bet, commercial areas are zoned against residential housing: full circle.

In cases like this governments should have a very high bar to clear before imposing those sorts of regulations.  Unless religious practice is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury it is not the job of any government (including municipal government) to regulate religion. Nor should a government define, where people may or may not pray, gather to express their political views, etc., etc.  I mean, are they going to go around houses in the area to check that 10 male Jews of 13 years of age or above do not gather in one spot? Or would the offense only be committed if, besides gathering and reciting some prayers, they start studying Torah?

Of course, in a world where people get outraged by mosques in Manhattan something like this is, alas, inevitable.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Must pure laine Quebeckers persist in conforming to unfortunate stereotypes? Urgh, urgh, urgh.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Why doesnt the Quebec government offer to give the Hassidim a plot of land in northern Quebec and have them build a Hutterite style closed community where everyone is walking distance to the synagogue and where they don't have to be in contact with the rest of society. None of them have jobs - they just pray and study all day anyways - so what does it matter to them if they are on the shores of James Bay or in the middle of Outremont...?

Because it isn't as if concentrating Hasidim in camps in remote regions has any nasty historical echoes or anything...

[Hatman 🍁]

Since when did Quebec allow for such trivial municipal referendums anyways? This kind of thing is unheard in Canada outside of BC. Well, I guess there were those de-merger referendums, but that's all I can think of.

[MaxQue]

Since when did Quebec allow for such trivial municipal referendums anyways? This kind of thing is unheard in Canada outside of BC. Well, I guess there were those de-merger referendums, but that's all I can think of.

Since decades. Referendums to block zoning changes (from worship places allowed to worship places disallowed, in this case) are legal since a long time (And like I said, it's the Hassidim who triggered it to try to block the ban).

[MaxQue]

There are virtually no secular Jews in Outremont.  The Mile End and Outremont were the heart of Jewish Montreal until the 1950s - then the bulk of the pre-war Jewish community moved out. Hasidic Jews moved in and today the Jewish population in Outremont is almost entirely Hasidic.

Outremont is basically: 1) francophone professionals and intellectuals and 2.) Hasidic Jews.  

Well, that only makes it worse.

Basically, as far as the ultra-religious Jews are conserned, a prohibition on synagogues is a prohibition of residence. If synagogues can only be built in commercial areas, that means those people can only live in commercial areas. And, I bet, commercial areas are zoned against residential housing: full circle.

Well, Bernard Avenue is a commercial area (and it makes sense, it's pretty much in the middle of the areas where the Hassidim are living). The Hassidim are not contesting the rule about no worship places in residential areas and quite agree with it. The issue is Outrement borough banning it in the commercial area of Bernard Avenue and asking to put new worship places in the north of the borough,  around Van Horne Avenue (which is the traditional place where most worship places are in Outremont, but isn't where the new generation of Hassidim is living).

[ag]

There are virtually no secular Jews in Outremont.  The Mile End and Outremont were the heart of Jewish Montreal until the 1950s - then the bulk of the pre-war Jewish community moved out. Hasidic Jews moved in and today the Jewish population in Outremont is almost entirely Hasidic.

Outremont is basically: 1) francophone professionals and intellectuals and 2.) Hasidic Jews.  

Well, that only makes it worse.

Basically, as far as the ultra-religious Jews are conserned, a prohibition on synagogues is a prohibition of residence. If synagogues can only be built in commercial areas, that means those people can only live in commercial areas. And, I bet, commercial areas are zoned against residential housing: full circle.

Well, Bernard Avenue is a commercial area (and it makes sense, it's pretty much in the middle of the areas where the Hassidim are living). The Hassidim are not contesting the rule about no worship places in residential areas and quite agree with it. The issue is Outrement borough banning it in the commercial area of Bernard Avenue and asking to put new worship places in the north of the borough,  around Van Horne Avenue (which is the traditional place where most worship places are in Outremont, but isn't where the new generation of Hassidim is living).

Whatever. The non-Hassidic Outremont residents want to get rid of the Hassidim - and this should not be allowed, period.

[DC Al Fine]

There are virtually no secular Jews in Outremont.  The Mile End and Outremont were the heart of Jewish Montreal until the 1950s - then the bulk of the pre-war Jewish community moved out. Hasidic Jews moved in and today the Jewish population in Outremont is almost entirely Hasidic.

Outremont is basically: 1) francophone professionals and intellectuals and 2.) Hasidic Jews.  

Well, that only makes it worse.

Basically, as far as the ultra-religious Jews are conserned, a prohibition on synagogues is a prohibition of residence. If synagogues can only be built in commercial areas, that means those people can only live in commercial areas. And, I bet, commercial areas are zoned against residential housing: full circle.

Well, Bernard Avenue is a commercial area (and it makes sense, it's pretty much in the middle of the areas where the Hassidim are living). The Hassidim are not contesting the rule about no worship places in residential areas and quite agree with it. The issue is Outrement borough banning it in the commercial area of Bernard Avenue and asking to put new worship places in the north of the borough,  around Van Horne Avenue (which is the traditional place where most worship places are in Outremont, but isn't where the new generation of Hassidim is living).

Whatever. The non-Hassidic Outremont residents want to get rid of the Hassidim - and this should not be allowed, period.

Precisely. What's the point of a constitution if the quirks of bylaws mean some random municipality can discriminate against minorities?

[MaxQue]

There are virtually no secular Jews in Outremont.  The Mile End and Outremont were the heart of Jewish Montreal until the 1950s - then the bulk of the pre-war Jewish community moved out. Hasidic Jews moved in and today the Jewish population in Outremont is almost entirely Hasidic.

Outremont is basically: 1) francophone professionals and intellectuals and 2.) Hasidic Jews.  

Well, that only makes it worse.

Basically, as far as the ultra-religious Jews are conserned, a prohibition on synagogues is a prohibition of residence. If synagogues can only be built in commercial areas, that means those people can only live in commercial areas. And, I bet, commercial areas are zoned against residential housing: full circle.

Well, Bernard Avenue is a commercial area (and it makes sense, it's pretty much in the middle of the areas where the Hassidim are living). The Hassidim are not contesting the rule about no worship places in residential areas and quite agree with it. The issue is Outrement borough banning it in the commercial area of Bernard Avenue and asking to put new worship places in the north of the borough,  around Van Horne Avenue (which is the traditional place where most worship places are in Outremont, but isn't where the new generation of Hassidim is living).

Whatever. The non-Hassidic Outremont residents want to get rid of the Hassidim - and this should not be allowed, period.

Precisely. What's the point of a constitution if the quirks of bylaws mean some random municipality can discriminate against minorities?

Well, it's probably not respecting the Constitution, hence why Julius Grey (NDP supporter, lawyer in pretty much all law suits involving discrimination against a community) is involved now.

Their argument is, since the Hassidim cannot use the transportation on some days, they must be allowed to build a worship place within walking distance (whether it's on Bernard Avenue or another street within walking distance, because you cannot argue there is a right to build a worship place on a specific street, only a specific area).

[Hatman 🍁]

Saskatoon Meewasin MLA Roger Parent (SP) has died due to cancer. By-election will of course be next year, but putting this here anyways.

The riding is usually an NDP seat, but has gone for the Sask Party since 2011 due to Brad Wall being more popular than Jesus.

[lilTommy]

Saskatoon Meewasin MLA Roger Parent (SP) has died due to cancer. By-election will of course be next year, but putting this here anyways.

The riding is usually an NDP seat, but has gone for the Sask Party since 2011 due to Brad Wall being more popular than Jesus.

That's changing, Wall and the SP are facing some really rough time due to their major budget problems, some sale scandals and overall just going to opposite of the feds.
The last poll (from August by Mainstreet) in Saskatoon showed a SP 47% NDP 41% split.

[DL]

I suspect that in the current political environment in Saskatchewan, the NDP would be heavily favoured to win Meewasin in a byelection. I wonder if Cam Broten would try to make a comeback by running there? Or what about Ryan Meili? Or the woman who ran for the NDP last April who was seen as having done well. It would be a natural place to run for anyone not currently an MLA who might have ambitions to run for the Sask NDP leadership