Is the party polarization in the USA asymmetric?

[buritobr]

Right-wing thinkers/activists/pundits like the Republican Party.

Left-wing thinkers/activists/pundits don't like the Democratic Party. They only consider it the lesser of the two evils.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I would consider the success of Trump and Cruz; and the defenestration of Boehner and Cantor; a pretty damning indictment of the first point.

[RFayette]

I would consider the success of Trump and Cruz; and the defenestration of Boehner and Cantor; a pretty damning indictment of the first point.

Yeah, if anything, the reverse was true.  You're a lot more likely to hear a Republican voter criticize Dubya, Ryan, or McConnell than a Democratic voter criticize Obama.

[Mr. Smith]

I would consider the success of Trump and Cruz; and the defenestration of Boehner and Cantor; a pretty damning indictment of the first point.

Yeah, if anything, the reverse was true.  You're a lot more likely to hear a Republican voter criticize Dubya, Ryan, or McConnell than a Democratic voter criticize Obama.

 Only because Dubya is out, mark my words Obama will get his rightful dues by the left and Democrats who he has consistently caved away from.

And I s'pose you are too young to remember how much of a sacred cow Dubya was to the right and how "un-American" criticizing his administration's policies were.

You certainly don't remember the big Gore/Nader divide, or the cynicism behind Kerry, or the outrage at Pelosi not immediately doing even half the stuff promised in '06.

And no right-winger or Foxie said anything against Bush...ever.


Mark my words Obama will be critiqued [just as Billy C. has been for Welfare Reform], whoever dethrones Ryan will be scrutinized on a litmus scale....even moreso if Hillary loses.

Polarization is assymetric, but it's all based on who has the White House and who doesn't, pundits who side with the guy in are lock-steppers, those outside splinter...hope Congress counters, and get angry when it can't.

[RFayette]

I would consider the success of Trump and Cruz; and the defenestration of Boehner and Cantor; a pretty damning indictment of the first point.

Yeah, if anything, the reverse was true.  You're a lot more likely to hear a Republican voter criticize Dubya, Ryan, or McConnell than a Democratic voter criticize Obama.

 Only because Dubya is out, mark my words Obama will get his rightful dues by the left and Democrats who he has consistently caved away from.

And I s'pose you are too young to remember how much of a sacred cow Dubya was to the right and how "un-American" criticizing his administration's policies were.

You certainly don't remember the big Gore/Nader divide, or the cynicism behind Kerry, or the outrage at Pelosi not immediately doing even half the stuff promised in '06.

And no right-winger or Foxie said anything against Bush...ever.


Mark my words Obama will be critiqued [just as Billy C. has been for Welfare Reform], whoever dethrones Ryan will be scrutinized on a litmus scale....even moreso if Hillary loses.

Polarization is assymetric, but it's all based on who has the White House and who doesn't, pundits who side with the guy in are lock-steppers, those outside splinter...hope Congress counters, and get angry when it can't.

This is all true, but Democrats, for all their quibbles, still have a lot more respect for the Democratic establishment at this point than Republicans do for the Republican establishment (as most GOP voters right now loathe it).  Once a Republican wins the White House, I agree, the Republican establishment will likely be more popular among GOPers.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

It was already known before this election, but most independents are Republican-leaners actually, and I think we are beginning to learn they are not Republican-leaners from the center but from the far right (much like the independent Democratic leaners are Bernie fans). [The "Trump fascism" voters that people keep clamoring about are obviously mostly non-voters and claim to be from the center as a result, but that's a new wave.]

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

 It was already known before this election, but most independents are Republican-leaners actually, and I think we are beginning to learn they are not Republican-leaners from the center but from the far right (much like the independent Democratic leaners are Bernie fans). [The "Trump fascism" voters that people keep clamoring about are obviously mostly non-voters and claim to be from the center as a result, but that's a new wave.]

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

 It was already known before this election, but most independents are Republican-leaners actually, and I think we are beginning to learn they are not Republican-leaners from the center but from the far right (much like the independent Democratic leaners are Bernie fans). [The "Trump fascism" voters that people keep clamoring about are obviously mostly non-voters and claim to be from the center as a result, but that's a new wave.]

[TJ in Oregon]

Democrats have won on most things lately so their side isn't as angry.

But hardly anyone really trusts or respects their party at this point. We've become a nation of cats.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Right-wing thinkers/activists/pundits like the Republican Party.

I hate the Republican Party, and so do a lot of Republican voters.

[Mr. Smith]

Democrats have won on most things lately so their side isn't as angry.

But hardly anyone really trusts or respects their party at this point. We've become a nation of cats.

Hahahaha what? Who won NINE SENATE SEATS last Mid-terms, FOUR GOVERNOR'S MANSIONS, and which side just elected a governor that promised to gut Obamacare?

Sorry, but JBE over Vitter is just a consolation prize for all that.

[RFayette]

Democrats have won on most things lately so their side isn't as angry.

But hardly anyone really trusts or respects their party at this point. We've become a nation of cats.

Hahahaha what? Who won NINE SENATE SEATS last Mid-terms, FOUR GOVERNOR'S MANSIONS, and which side just elected a governor that promised to gut Obamacare?

Sorry, but JBE over Vitter is just a consolation prize for all that.

I think TJ is referring more to cultural changes that have taken place.  Gay marriage has been legalized; the transgender movement is gaining power.  Many things that were once considered ridiculous are now becoming debatable issues and some have been already one by the social liberals.  The country has moved pretty far to the left since Obama took office, and this has made conservatives quite angry.

[TJ in Oregon]

Democrats have won on most things lately so their side isn't as angry.

But hardly anyone really trusts or respects their party at this point. We've become a nation of cats.

Hahahaha what? Who won NINE SENATE SEATS last Mid-terms, FOUR GOVERNOR'S MANSIONS, and which side just elected a governor that promised to gut Obamacare?

Sorry, but JBE over Vitter is just a consolation prize for all that.

I think TJ is referring more to cultural changes that have taken place.  Gay marriage has been legalized; the transgender movement is gaining power.  Many things that were once considered ridiculous are now becoming debatable issues and some have been already one by the social liberals.  The country has moved pretty far to the left since Obama took office, and this has made conservatives quite angry.

Yup. The Pubbies keep winning state elections but it means zilch if they keep losing issues.

I keep getting this idea that someday I'm going to wake up and it will still be 2007 and everything since then will have just been a very bizarre dream. Either that or someone is going to yell 'April Fools!!'.

All that being said, I prefer to laugh than to cry. It's more effective anyway.

[RFayette]

Democrats have won on most things lately so their side isn't as angry.

But hardly anyone really trusts or respects their party at this point. We've become a nation of cats.

Hahahaha what? Who won NINE SENATE SEATS last Mid-terms, FOUR GOVERNOR'S MANSIONS, and which side just elected a governor that promised to gut Obamacare?

Sorry, but JBE over Vitter is just a consolation prize for all that.

I think TJ is referring more to cultural changes that have taken place.  Gay marriage has been legalized; the transgender movement is gaining power.  Many things that were once considered ridiculous are now becoming debatable issues and some have been already one by the social liberals.  The country has moved pretty far to the left since Obama took office, and this has made conservatives quite angry.

Yup. The Pubbies keep winning state elections but it means zilch if they keep losing issues.

I keep getting this idea that someday I'm going to wake up and it will still be 2007 and everything since then will have just been a very bizarre dream. Either that or someone is going to yell 'April Fools!!'.

All that being said, I prefer to laugh than to cry. It's more effective anyway.

Agreed.

In 2005, a lot of Democrats complained that America was a land of "Jesus freaks" and extreme conservatives.  Even after the 2006 midterm slaughter, many still thought the country "felt" pretty darn conservative when Bush was President.  Now under Obama, we've seen religion decline precipitously (it started in the early '90s, but the trend has accelerated in the late 2000's/early 2010's), gay marriage legalized, a health care overhaul, and a host of executive actions on issues like immigration, climate change, etc.    Add in stagnating wages for working-class whites and there's bound to be a lot of resentment.  So now, even though Republicans control both houses of Congress and hordes of statehouses and governorships, ask the average American (and especially a Republican) and they would say that America feels "quite liberal" at the moment [and definitely has moved in that direction].   America has lost its fear of the Lord, and many people are now believing that their moral reasoning trumps God's infallible word.  It's too bad, but there are still many people of God in this great country, even if our nation's proud fundamentalist heritage is heading into the sunset.

 

[TJ in Oregon]

Forget fundamentalism, I'd settle for an America where there are more than a quarter of my peers who don't think recreational drug use is a good thing. Or maybe not having the thought sneered at. Or really pretty much any thought in disagreement with the sniveling hipster antifada not being sneered at. I'm not that picky in that type of social situation.

Weirdly, I think things are better than they were a couple years ago. Obama no longer being as cool has turned some folks into equal opportunity snivelers so that's an improvement.

But enough about me; that doesn't seem to be what's driving the GOP resentment but it is related. I do think many of the older working class folk look upon today's social liberalism with a sense of bewilderment like someone in the interaction has just landed from Mars, particularly the "safe space" kind of stuff. Trump has certainly capitalized on that piece. Nobody really trusts the Republican establishment to do much besides regurgitate talking points and cash checks from bankers.

[RFayette]

I agree with you there; Trump's support comes from a bewilderment in general, and many of his supporters, while aghast at societal changes, aren't even particularly religious.  As far as the GOP goes, I completely agree with that sentiment.  It seems like the only things the GOP is able to deliver on is what many in the political/donor class want, such as more assorted tax breaks/credits and a few reforms here and there.  But they aren't even trying to reverse or undo any of the huge changes that have taken place.  A big part of that is that, despite the GOP base being quite conservative in outlook and very concerned about the nation's future, the people who write checks for the Republicans are mostly socially progressive rich people who generally (but not always) have a hawkish foreign policy.  They don't have a huge beef with Obama for the most part, and are more than happy with things as they are, so long as Republicans control the statehouses and Congress, preventing tax increases and advancing certain, specific agenda items on labor, spending, and taxes.  A corrolary is that while much of the Democratic base is quite socialist, Obama knows he can't pass an economic agenda that is too progressive without incurring wrath from upper-class moderates, so that base often gets left in the dust as well, in favor of SJW and social liberal interests.

[TJ in Oregon]

I agree with you there; Trump's support comes from a bewilderment in general, and many of his supporters, while aghast at societal changes, aren't even particularly religious.  As far as the GOP goes, I completely agree with that sentiment.  It seems like the only things the GOP is able to deliver on is what many in the political/donor class want, such as more assorted tax breaks/credits and a few reforms here and there.  But they aren't even trying to reverse or undo any of the huge changes that have taken place.  A big part of that is that, despite the GOP base being quite conservative in outlook and very concerned about the nation's future, the people who write checks for the Republicans are mostly socially progressive rich people who generally (but not always) have a hawkish foreign policy.  They don't have a huge beef with Obama for the most part, and are more than happy with things as they are, so long as Republicans control the statehouses and Congress, preventing tax increases and advancing certain, specific agenda items on labor, spending, and taxes.  A corrolary is that while much of the Democratic base is quite socialist, Obama knows he can't pass an economic agenda that is too progressive without incurring wrath from upper-class moderates, so that base often gets left in the dust as well, in favor of SJW and social liberal interests.

The conclusion I've reached (which I think we all know deep down but don't like) is that reversing all this is fundamentally not an endeavor suited to the political realm. It's not a matter of changing a couple laws and watching the everything fall back in line; that's not how the world works. Truthfully, Obama and his millenial contingent haven't changed very many laws. What really needs to change are hearts and not laws. And quite frankly (now that we're not talking about the government we can say it without qualification) that purpose of such must be for the salvation of souls and in service to Christ. Not to make America great or any country or pet issue or to have people say nice things about us. Politics, even when well-intended, can be a destructive distraction.

Okay, stepping off the soap box

[buritobr]

In the famous ABC debates between William Buckley Jr. and Gore Vidal which took place during the 1968 campaign, it was clear that Buckley was endorsing Nixon, but Vidal was not endorsing Humphrey. He was endorsing the protests in the Democratic Convention in Chicago. We can details about this debate in the documentar "Best of Enemies".
Obs: there was a strong left-wing opposition to the Vietnam War. A war which was started by a ... Democratic president.

Another famous American left-wing academic, Noam Chomsky, is not an enthusiast of the Democratic Party.

Michael Moore is a great supporter of the Democratic Party... between July and November of every bissextile year, and no more than this time.
In 2004, there was no pro-Kerry campaign, there was anti-Bush campaign

John Kenneth Galbraith worked for the FDR and JFK administrations, but he became very disappointed with the democrats when he became old.

Paul Krugman usually writes in his blog that being a moderate is not being between D and R. According to him, being a moderate is being D.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

All activists think their side are incompetent, cowardly and don't leverage their power enough, and think their opponents always get their own way because they are so malevolent and sneaky.

[Seneca]

Forget fundamentalism, I'd settle for an America where there are more than a quarter of my peers who don't think recreational drug use is a good thing. Or maybe not having the thought sneered at. Or really pretty much any thought in disagreement with the sniveling hipster antifada not being sneered at. I'm not that picky in that type of social situation.

Weirdly, I think things are better than they were a couple years ago. Obama no longer being as cool has turned some folks into equal opportunity snivelers so that's an improvement.

But enough about me; that doesn't seem to be what's driving the GOP resentment but it is related. I do think many of the older working class folk look upon today's social liberalism with a sense of bewilderment like someone in the interaction has just landed from Mars, particularly the "safe space" kind of stuff. Trump has certainly capitalized on that piece. Nobody really trusts the Republican establishment to do much besides regurgitate talking points and cash checks from bankers.

I believe the emergence of "'safe space' kind of stuff" into public consciousness is the result of one online echo-chamber bursting into political practice. The internet has allowed virtual intellectual ghettos to develop; this "SJW" culture has spread from online forums like tumblr to infect leftist activism. To me, the SJW phenomenon is analogous to the ultraconservative movement. The base shared by Trump, Cruz, and Carson have been captured by another, much larger echo chamber of media outlets--talk radio, Fox News, Drudge, and so on. The difference, of course, is that the ultraconservative "culture" is shared by a much larger number of people and has had much more of a political impact than SJWs.

I do not buy the argument that the US has moved significantly to the left over the past 8 years. Yes, the LGBT community has improved its situation dramatically and yes, some states are experimenting with legalizing or at least decriminalizing marijuana. But outside of those two issues, where else has the left won? Public opinion and political rhetoric has swung dramatically against undocumented immigrants, with mass deportation now a legitimate, electable position. Gun control is essentially off the table, despite a huge spike in the incidence of mass shootings. The "national security" issues that motivated dovish democrats a decade ago are all lost causes; Guantanamo will never close down, drone assassination has been enshrined as US policy by a Democratic president, military intervention in middle eastern countries has continued unabated, and a massive domestic surveillance apparatus was unveiled. And on economic issues, the left's traditional bread and butter, we've continued on a neoliberal path with a landmark "free trade" deal in the TPP, no real economic stimulus to boost the economy out of stagnation, and no sizeable regulatory changes to prevent another financial crisis (which may just now be unfolding).

In my eyes, the charge that the US has shifted massively to the left betrays the accuser as belonging to that aforementioned right-wing echo-chamber. I don't mean to claim that the US is actually drifting leftwards. Personally, I don't think the right vs. left spectrum is particularly useful. If the country as a whole is moving in any one direction, you allude to it in your last sentence, towards the "bankers" and other super-wealthy individuals who finance the campaigns of politicians in both parties. The two echo chambers I've identified serve only to polarize the public on select "social issues" which don't threaten that elite, distracting us from what really matters.

[Young Conservative]

Right Wing voters don't like the party. They like select people in it. We loathe the party elites. We are also far more likely to criticize our own than any democrat to criticize Pres. Obama

[RINO Tom]

I would consider the success of Trump and Cruz; and the defenestration of Boehner and Cantor; a pretty damning indictment of the first point.

Yeah, if anything, the reverse was true.  You're a lot more likely to hear a Republican voter criticize Dubya, Ryan, or McConnell than a Democratic voter criticize Obama.

 Only because Dubya is out, mark my words Obama will get his rightful dues by the left and Democrats who he has consistently caved away from.

And I s'pose you are too young to remember how much of a sacred cow Dubya was to the right and how "un-American" criticizing his administration's policies were.

You certainly don't remember the big Gore/Nader divide, or the cynicism behind Kerry, or the outrage at Pelosi not immediately doing even half the stuff promised in '06.

And no right-winger or Foxie said anything against Bush...ever.


Mark my words Obama will be critiqued [just as Billy C. has been for Welfare Reform], whoever dethrones Ryan will be scrutinized on a litmus scale....even moreso if Hillary loses.

Polarization is assymetric, but it's all based on who has the White House and who doesn't, pundits who side with the guy in are lock-steppers, those outside splinter...hope Congress counters, and get angry when it can't.

This is all true, but Democrats, for all their quibbles, still have a lot more respect for the Democratic establishment at this point than Republicans do for the Republican establishment (as most GOP voters right now loathe it).  Once a Republican wins the White House, I agree, the Republican establishment will likely be more popular among GOPers.

If Romney had won in 2012, the "GOP Base" would be getting along just fine with the "GOP Establishment" (which is ironic, because Romney likely lost due to his pandering to the base on immigration).

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

One popular misconception is that the conservative movement = GOP base

[Rockefeller GOP]

One popular misconception is that the conservative movement = GOP base

Until this cycle, if you're saying Trump's supporters are the base, I don't see how it's a misconception.  I'd wager a hefty chunk of Trump supporters weren't even registered Republicans (or their equivalent in open primary states) before this year, so I'm not sure they can be called the party's base (which I'd say are probably mostly behind Cruz).

[Virginiá]

I do not buy the argument that the US has moved significantly to the left over the past 8 years

I don't think the country as a whole is becoming more liberal right now in the sense that people are changing their minds, but more like the Millennial generation, as it grows & through generational replacement is making the country more liberal as time goes on. It's no secret Millennials are far more socially liberal and generally are more liberal (even if only by small amounts) on lots of other issues. They may not be too economically liberal, but their views on government and other things are generally better than the older generation.

So it would be safe to say that in 15 - 25 years, the country will in fact be more liberal compared to today. Though, not liberal across the board on every issue.

This is a very good look at what I'm talking about. I posted this link in another thread, but it seems relevant here so I'll share it again:

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/03/07/millennials-in-adulthood/

That is what the face of our country will be in 15 - 25 years.