Opinion of Obama's gun speech today

[7,052,770]

What % of shootings (accidental or intentional, including suicides) are done by the hardened criminals who know how to get illegal black market guns and have the means to do so?

Right-wingers/libertarians always claim "no need for gun laws because the CRIMINALS will still get guns anyway!!!" and they're right in a sense that background checks and the like aren't going to prevent the career criminals with black market connections from getting the guns. But I suspect they don't account for the vast majority of shootings like the Right tries to portray.

(I'm actually asking BTW. I don't know the answer, and I'd like to.)

Unsurprisingly, none of the gunlovers even acknowledged my question, because they know it would undermine their entire overarching argument on guns.

[tschandler]

What % of shootings (accidental or intentional, including suicides) are done by the hardened criminals who know how to get illegal black market guns and have the means to do so?

Right-wingers/libertarians always claim "no need for gun laws because the CRIMINALS will still get guns anyway!!!" and they're right in a sense that background checks and the like aren't going to prevent the career criminals with black market connections from getting the guns. But I suspect they don't account for the vast majority of shootings like the Right tries to portray.

(I'm actually asking BTW. I don't know the answer, and I'd like to.)

Unsurprisingly, none of the gunlovers even acknowledged my question, because they know it would undermine their entire overarching argument on guns.

No one responded because it is a false equivalence.  The majority of shootings are suicides.  

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What % of shootings (accidental or intentional, including suicides) are done by the hardened criminals who know how to get illegal black market guns and have the means to do so?

Right-wingers/libertarians always claim "no need for gun laws because the CRIMINALS will still get guns anyway!!!" and they're right in a sense that background checks and the like aren't going to prevent the career criminals with black market connections from getting the guns. But I suspect they don't account for the vast majority of shootings like the Right tries to portray.

(I'm actually asking BTW. I don't know the answer, and I'd like to.)

Unsurprisingly, none of the gunlovers even acknowledged my question, because they know it would undermine their entire overarching argument on guns.

"hardened criminals" is not a category which lends itself to statistical analysis, but here's what I found:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/oct/05/joe-scarborough/msnbcs-joe-scarborough-tiny-fraction-crimes-commit/

Most criminal shootings don't result in a traceable murder weapon, so it's hard to know for sure, but it seems to be a small amount.  As for how many suicide and accidental gun deaths are from illegal weapons, I don't know.

[tschandler]

What % of shootings (accidental or intentional, including suicides) are done by the hardened criminals who know how to get illegal black market guns and have the means to do so?

Right-wingers/libertarians always claim "no need for gun laws because the CRIMINALS will still get guns anyway!!!" and they're right in a sense that background checks and the like aren't going to prevent the career criminals with black market connections from getting the guns. But I suspect they don't account for the vast majority of shootings like the Right tries to portray.

(I'm actually asking BTW. I don't know the answer, and I'd like to.)

Unsurprisingly, none of the gunlovers even acknowledged my question, because they know it would undermine their entire overarching argument on guns.

"hardened criminals" is not a category which lends itself to statistical analysis, but here's what I found:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/oct/05/joe-scarborough/msnbcs-joe-scarborough-tiny-fraction-crimes-commit/

Most criminal shootings don't result in a traceable murder weapon, so it's hard to know for sure, but it seems to be a small amount.  As for how many suicide and accidental gun deaths are from illegal weapons, I don't know.

Exactly the numbers impossible to trace.  But the numbers we do have would likely be a lot higher and correlate to certain areas if the problem was simply the average citizen owning guns.  Gun Ownership isn't the killer stat if you will.  It is gang and other criminal activity. 

[ProgressiveCanadian]

People are still debating that Obamas speach and executive order was terrible?? Most Americans agree with his action time to accept it.

[7,052,770]

What % of shootings (accidental or intentional, including suicides) are done by the hardened criminals who know how to get illegal black market guns and have the means to do so?

Right-wingers/libertarians always claim "no need for gun laws because the CRIMINALS will still get guns anyway!!!" and they're right in a sense that background checks and the like aren't going to prevent the career criminals with black market connections from getting the guns. But I suspect they don't account for the vast majority of shootings like the Right tries to portray.

(I'm actually asking BTW. I don't know the answer, and I'd like to.)

Unsurprisingly, none of the gunlovers even acknowledged my question, because they know it would undermine their entire overarching argument on guns.

"hardened criminals" is not a category which lends itself to statistical analysis, but here's what I found:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/oct/05/joe-scarborough/msnbcs-joe-scarborough-tiny-fraction-crimes-commit/

Most criminal shootings don't result in a traceable murder weapon, so it's hard to know for sure, but it seems to be a small amount.  As for how many suicide and accidental gun deaths are from illegal weapons, I don't know.

That's interesting, but it's not exactly what I asked. I want to know how many murders, accidental shootings, and suicides are committed by people who are such criminals that they would flippantly purchase guns on the black market without regard to the law. The gun fanatics always imply that this number is practically 100%.

But if it's not 100%, it shoots holes in their argument that gun laws are useless.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What % of shootings (accidental or intentional, including suicides) are done by the hardened criminals who know how to get illegal black market guns and have the means to do so?

Right-wingers/libertarians always claim "no need for gun laws because the CRIMINALS will still get guns anyway!!!" and they're right in a sense that background checks and the like aren't going to prevent the career criminals with black market connections from getting the guns. But I suspect they don't account for the vast majority of shootings like the Right tries to portray.

(I'm actually asking BTW. I don't know the answer, and I'd like to.)

Unsurprisingly, none of the gunlovers even acknowledged my question, because they know it would undermine their entire overarching argument on guns.

"hardened criminals" is not a category which lends itself to statistical analysis, but here's what I found:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/oct/05/joe-scarborough/msnbcs-joe-scarborough-tiny-fraction-crimes-commit/

Most criminal shootings don't result in a traceable murder weapon, so it's hard to know for sure, but it seems to be a small amount.  As for how many suicide and accidental gun deaths are from illegal weapons, I don't know.

That's interesting, but it's not exactly what I asked. I want to know how many murders, accidental shootings, and suicides are committed by people who are such criminals that they would flippantly purchase guns on the black market without regard to the law. The gun fanatics always imply that this number is practically 100%.

But if it's not 100%, it shoots holes in their argument that gun laws are useless.

what do you mean "flippantly"?   You don't need to be "such criminals" to purchase guns on the black market.  You just need a connection and a reason.   

[Hillary pays minimum wage]

The black market would "necessarily skyrocket" if Obama had his way as he said in 2008 regarding to the cost of electricity with an Obama administration.

[MK]

The gun control debate has nothing to do with safety and EVERTHING to do with POWER.

[SillyAmerican]

The gun control debate has nothing to do with safety and EVERTHING to do with POWER.

Agreed. And if Mr. Obama thought he could get away with abolishing the 2nd amendment via an executive order, he'd be oh so happy to oblige.

I'm actually one of those people who is happy to see Congress send the repeal of Obamacare to the President's desk, and to see Mr. Obama veto it. That's the way our government should work, the way it's designed to work. This idea that the executive knows best, and should rule through the use of executive orders, that's just downright silly and un-American.

[tschandler]

The speech was more than we've come to expect from politicians in this country, but far short of what is needed.

It may not be politically correct to say this, but there is no such thing as "responsible gun ownership." Gun ownership is inherently irresponsible, and you cannot understand the gun problem in this country while ignoring this fact. Neither gun safety technology nor "common sense" gun regulations will make much of a difference as long as tens of millions of firearms are in private hands.

Unfortunately, I expect that it will be a very long time before any US politician openly admits how absurd it is to believe that individual "right to bear arms" is so precious that we must be prepared to tolerate some level of carnage for the sake of the supposedly sacrosanct Second Amendment.

Seriously? So my guns are going to climb out of the gun safe, load themselves, and start murdering people?

[7,052,770]

what do you mean "flippantly"?   You don't need to be "such criminals" to purchase guns on the black market.  You just need a connection and a reason.   

People who knowingly break laws are being flippant to the government.

Again, gun enthusiasts imply that virtually all shootings are committed by people who don't follow laws and will just buy black market guns without regard to what's legal and what's not. I suspect that they greatly exaggerate the % of shootings (including accidents and suicides) that are committed by people with the necessary black market connections and necessary flippant attitude to do so.

And if I'm right, the whole argument of "gun control never works because criminals can get guns anyway!!!" doesn't really hold together logically.

[tschandler]

what do you mean "flippantly"?   You don't need to be "such criminals" to purchase guns on the black market.  You just need a connection and a reason.   

People who knowingly break laws are being flippant to the government.

Again, gun enthusiasts imply that virtually all shootings are committed by people who don't follow laws and will just buy black market guns without regard to what's legal and what's not. I suspect that they greatly exaggerate the % of shootings (including accidents and suicides) that are committed by people with the necessary black market connections and necessary flippant attitude to do so.

And if I'm right, the whole argument of "gun control never works because criminals can get guns anyway!!!" doesn't really hold together logically.

As to the Gun control never works argument, if you removed all legal guns from society CRIMINALS WOULD STILL HAVE THEM.  The only people you are disarming is legal, law abiding gun owners who use their guns for legitimate purposes.  Is this site completely populated with betas that have no inkling of an experience using firearms legitimately?

Owning a firearm isn't a crime, nor is suicide.  Only murder/manslaughter are crimes.  Disarming the law abiding citizen puts them at the mercy of the police and the criminal class. 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

what do you mean "flippantly"?   You don't need to be "such criminals" to purchase guns on the black market.  You just need a connection and a reason.   

People who knowingly break laws are being flippant to the government.

Again, gun enthusiasts imply that virtually all shootings are committed by people who don't follow laws and will just buy black market guns without regard to what's legal and what's not. I suspect that they greatly exaggerate the % of shootings (including accidents and suicides) that are committed by people with the necessary black market connections and necessary flippant attitude to do so.

And if I'm right, the whole argument of "gun control never works because criminals can get guns anyway!!!" doesn't really hold together logically.

Yes, you would keep some number of people from committing crimes with guns if you made it illegal to buy or keep guns.  How many we can't know, there inherently isn't data on this because it is a situation we don't have.  On the one hand, fewer legal guns probably means fewer guns overall to be put ont he black market. On the other, if you making something less legal, the black market demand will increase and suppliers will attempt to expand to fill this.
The crucial question is whether you or willing to keep the guns out of the hands of everyone else for an uncertain reduction in the use of guns in criminal activities.   And this is going to hinge a lot on the value you place on self-defense. The possibility of suicide meanwhile simply isn't as scary to most people as someone pulling a gun on them.  From an individualist perspective, if you are doing something to yourself, you at least have some measure of control or recourse to seek help if you are afraid you will harm yourself.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Prohibition doesn't work. If gun control was strengthened then criminals would clearly start brewing firearms in their bathtubs.

[Joe Republic]

The gun control debate has nothing to do with safety and EVERTHING to do with POWER.

what

[SteveRogers]

What I find baffling about the anti-gun control side's arguments in this thread is that no one actually seems interested in explaining why the measures embodied in Obama's executive orders are bad. Sure, I've seen some arguments about how they aren't the most effective way to reduce gun deaths, which is obviously true since Obama is extremely limited in the actions he can take on his own. And I see a lot of people expressing a knee jerk reaction that anything that falls under the umbrella of "gun control" is bad because blah blah blah. But can anyone explain specifically the downside of:
1. Narrowing the gun show loophole? (Yes, that's what it's called. Debating the semantics of that term isn't actually an argument against eliminating it).
2. Hiring more ATF agents to actually process background checks in a timely manner?
3. Providing funding for mental health services?
4. Promoting "smart gun" technology?

Because those are the things Obama's actions do.

[Torie]

What I find baffling about the anti-gun control side's arguments in this thread is that no one actually seems interested in explaining why the measures embodied in Obama's executive orders are bad. Sure, I've seen some arguments about how they aren't the most effective way to reduce gun deaths, which is obviously true since Obama is extremely limited in the actions he can take on his own. And I see a lot of people expressing a knee jerk reaction that anything that falls under the umbrella of "gun control" is bad because blah blah blah. But can anyone explain specifically the downside of:
1. Narrowing the gun show loophole? (Yes, that's what it's called. Debating the semantics of that term isn't actually an argument against eliminating it).
2. Hiring more ATF agents to actually process background checks in a timely manner?
3. Providing funding for mental health services?
4. Promoting "smart gun" technology?

Because those are the things Obama's actions do.

The substance of what Obama did is a big nothing - a fart in a windstorm. I think the controversy is really about Obama doing this in the context of horrible killings that have nothing to do with gun control, and would not be stopped by anything that Obama is doing, or by any legislation that he is proposing. The implication that the two are tied annoys some people. What gun control will mostly do is keep a few guns away from psychotics, avoid a few hot blooded killings, and hopefully a fair number of gun accidents. If put in that context, things I suspect would be a lot calmer. But calmness in the public square just isn't very "in" right now. What's hot is shrill, angry and apocalyptic.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

Totally agree.

[tschandler]

Prohibition doesn't work. If gun control was strengthened then criminals would clearly start brewing firearms in their bathtubs.

you realize firearms aren't that hard to make right?  Why do gun control advocates always come from a point of complete ignorance. 

[SteveRogers]

Prohibition doesn't work. If gun control was strengthened then criminals would clearly start brewing firearms in their bathtubs.

you realize firearms aren't that hard to make right?  Why do gun control advocates always come from a point of complete ignorance. 

Good ones are pretty darn hard to make.

[tschandler]

Prohibition doesn't work. If gun control was strengthened then criminals would clearly start brewing firearms in their bathtubs.

you realize firearms aren't that hard to make right?  Why do gun control advocates always come from a point of complete ignorance. 

Good ones are pretty darn hard to make.

True but they really making strides with 3D printing.  But prohibition would make the number of guns skyrocket as well.  You would just be disarming people who would follow the law/make regular citizens criminals.

No one ever asks Gun Control Advocates the tough questions.  If you don't think I have a right to a firearm, do I have a right to self defense?  And if I don't have the right to either does the government have the right to use force to disarm me? 

[Joe Republic]

If you don't think I have a right to a firearm, do I have a right to self defense?

How on earth are these concepts mutually exclusive?  Do you believe a gun is the only method of self defense?

And if I don't have the right to either does the government have the right to use force to disarm me? 

Dude if the government really wants to disarm you, they could do it no matter how armed to the teeth you are.  Plus you'd pretty much end up dead either way, but you'd win on principle I guess?

[tschandler]

If you don't think I have a right to a firearm, do I have a right to self defense?

How on earth are these concepts mutually exclusive?  Do you believe a gun is the only method of self defense?

And if I don't have the right to either does the government have the right to use force to disarm me? 

Dude if the government really wants to disarm you, they could do it no matter how armed to the teeth you are.  Plus you'd pretty much end up dead either way, but you'd win on principle I guess?

They are the most effective method hence why they are used for said purposes. 

Worst case Scenario:  The US military had trouble controlling Iraq and Afghanistan.   The United States is even bigger and more spread out.  Not to mention in said scenario a significant chunk of the US armed forces wouldn't participate.

[Joe Republic]

You asked if you still had a right to self-defense if you no longer had a right to a gun, when obviously the answer would be yes.  What a silly argument.

As for your doomsday scenario, I'll refer you to a recent post of mine from shortly after one of the mass shootings; I forget which one:

This exchange demonstrates that the reason why the anti-gun minority is living in a fairyland where our objectives will never be fulfilled, is because the pro-gun majority is living in a fairyland where the federal government is apparently only a door knock away from rounding citizens up into camps or something.  Rational dialogue is impossible.