Why can't large urban areas be conservative?

[RI]

Clarke, yesterday's suburbs are today's inner urban neighbourhoods. Quite literally. A suburb is a particular type of urban environment, rather than a whole new category. Americans can sometimes be very funny about the supposed MASSIVE DISTINCTION between the two words, but that is entirely because 'urban' is often used as a euphemism in American English...

I've heard it said that suburbanites love cities - provided that they don't have to associate with the people who live in them.

That's pretty much how I feel. I love a great many things about Seattle, but the people who live in it aren't one of them.

[5280]

I've heard it said that suburbanites love cities - provided that they don't have to associate with the people who live in them.

The cultural difference between cities and inner suburbs seems to be vanishing in large parts of the country (though obviously there are many notable exceptions).  The stereotype of the wealthy white suburb and the diverse, crime-ridden city is really outdated, and while the perception has outlasted reality, I think attitudes are beginning to catch up especially with younger people.  There's a reason why so many white millennials are moving to the inner cities.

I'm a millennial, and refuse to live in the city. I'd rather own a home eventually and live in outer ring suburbs and be self reliant. Not all millennials want to live in the city, deal with traffic, crowded areas.

[TJ in Oregon]

And even though Blacks have historically suffered at the hands of White-led discrimination in this country, that doesn't mean that anywhere even close to a significant number hold the same kind of animosity towards Whites that a large number of Whites hold against minorities.

Why are black-on-white murders more common than the reverse, then? Doesn't that contradict the notion that whites are more hostile to blacks than vice versa?

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls

This sort of thing is a prime example of why racial voting polarization will continue. The discussion quickly degenerates into an argument about who has been wronged by whom and who is currently the most underhanded. It will keep people voting the way they currently are.

[5280]

And even though Blacks have historically suffered at the hands of White-led discrimination in this country, that doesn't mean that anywhere even close to a significant number hold the same kind of animosity towards Whites that a large number of Whites hold against minorities.

Why are black-on-white murders more common than the reverse, then? Doesn't that contradict the notion that whites are more hostile to blacks than vice versa?

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls

This sort of thing is a prime example of why racial voting polarization will continue. The discussion quickly degenerates into an argument about who has been wronged by whom and who is currently the most underhanded. It will keep people voting the way they currently are.

It all comes down to how a person is raised by their family in a color blinded society.

[Mr. Illini]

The emphasis on minorities in this thread ignores that urban whites are also a solid D group. It's more of a urban culture issue than people are making it out to be.

[5280]

The emphasis on minorities in this thread ignores that urban whites are also a solid D group. It's more of a urban culture issue than people are making it out to be.

Urban culture is unsustainable if hell breaks loose, just saying.

[Virginiá]

Urban culture is unsustainable if hell breaks loose, just saying.

What does that mean, though, 'if hell breaks loose'? Zombie apocalypse? Nuclear winter?

[5280]

Urban culture is unsustainable if hell breaks loose, just saying.

What does that mean, though, 'if hell breaks loose'? Zombie apocalypse? Nuclear winter?

Yeah, mainly. People living in urban environments can be trained to be self reliant. The Walking Dead TV show sort of plays a role.

[YaBoyNY]

The emphasis on minorities in this thread ignores that urban whites are also a solid D group. It's more of a urban culture issue than people are making it out to be.

Urban culture is unsustainable if hell breaks loose, just saying.

Urban culture is unsustainable if hell breaks loose, just saying.

What does that mean, though, 'if hell breaks loose'? Zombie apocalypse? Nuclear winter?

Yeah, mainly. People living in urban environments can be trained to be self reliant. The Walking Dead TV show sort of plays a role.

why god why

[Virginiá]

Urban culture is unsustainable if hell breaks loose, just saying.

What does that mean, though, 'if hell breaks loose'? Zombie apocalypse? Nuclear winter?

Yeah, mainly. People living in urban environments can be trained to be self reliant. The Walking Dead TV show sort of plays a role.

I've always assumed metropolitan areas would be the first to go in such events. In a full nuclear exchange, assuming they were one of the few metro areas not directly targeted, they would tear each other apart through looting, starvation and crime in general. Others would leave the area but be somewhat helpless as most of them would probably not have any resources outside of the city.

For the sake of debate, in a zombie scenario, urban areas would also be decimated and the first to go. Too many people clustered together with no real time to react (depending on type of zombies!) and with the bulk having no general survival skills.

Cities/metro areas are only possible because of our modern support systems. If any/all of them break down, the cities fall apart.

[Asian Nazi]

I think that once you start citing a fictional TV show about zombies in your argument, you've probably lost.

[Citizen Hats]

Harper won a plurality of Toronto seats in 2011.

Precisely. Vancouver was governed by the center right for most the 20th Century, and usually votes that way in Provincial elections as well.  John Tory, Gordon Campbell, Rob Ford, or abroad Boris Johnson or Jaques Chirac all conservative mayors at one point.

What appears to me to have happened is that the overwhelming cultural tribalism of the American right is simply repellent to naturally pragmatic urban conservatives, and as such the ability of Republicans to win big-city elections has withered. 

[Asian Nazi]

Precisely. Vancouver was governed by the center right for most the 20th Century, and usually votes that way in Provincial elections as well.  John Tory, Gordon Campbell, Rob Ford, or abroad Boris Johnson or Jaques Chirac all conservative mayors at one point.

What appears to me to have happened is that the overwhelming cultural tribalism of the American right is simply repellent to naturally pragmatic urban conservatives, and as such the ability of Republicans to win big-city elections has withered. 

If by tribalism you mean Christianity, yes.

[Gary J]

When the Roman Empire withdrew from the British Isles in the year 410 it led fairly rapidly to the decay of urban settlements. Even a major city, with an advantageous location like Londinium, could not sustain itself. It was only when Anglo-Saxon Kings began to fortify settlements  that urban life revived on any large scale. Extract from the Wikipedia article on Anglo-Saxon London.

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All of which supports the idea that you need quite a strong degree of social organisation to sustain an urban culture. If that social organisation disappears the cities crumble.

I am not sure that any American would want the degree of mass destruction that would be needed to de-urbanise North America for a few centuries.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Some of our Swedish posters have pointed out in other threads that Stockholm is a strong hold of the centre-right, as it is a very wealthy city and class and economics play more important roles in Swedish politics.


So there's that. Can't think of any other countries where urban areas are more conservative, though.

[Asian Nazi]

Some of our Swedish posters have pointed out in other threads that Stockholm is a strong hold of the centre-right, as it is a very wealthy city and class and economics play more important roles in Swedish politics.

It also has to do with the fact that Sweden essentially had reverse white flight.  After WWII the Swedish government built tons of public housing in the suburbs, drawing working class Swedes and immigrants out of the cities.  So while there are left-wing cities in Sweden, the Anglosphere voting patterns don't really apply.  Social Democrats are also very strong in large parts of rural Sweden in ways that Anglosphere center-left parties simply aren't anymore.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Some of our Swedish posters have pointed out in other threads that Stockholm is a strong hold of the centre-right, as it is a very wealthy city and class and economics play more important roles in Swedish politics.

It also has to do with the fact that Sweden essentially had reverse white flight.  After WWII the Swedish government built tons of public housing in the suburbs, drawing working class Swedes and immigrants out of the cities.  So while there are left-wing cities in Sweden, the Anglosphere voting patterns don't really apply.  Social Democrats are also very strong in large parts of rural Sweden in ways that Anglosphere center-left parties simply aren't anymore.

This is very true for Stockholm and probably Uppsala as well, but how true is it for Gothenburg and Malmo? Those are strongholds of SD, being working class and immigrant-heavy, I believe.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Do we have any information on how Anchorage voted in 2012? Since the rural areas are Native-heavy, this map looks like the urban areas are more conservative based on energy, economics, and demographics. Does this apply to other elections as well?

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

I also wonder if Indiana in the 90s could work for this. Allen County (Fort Wayne) is very Republican, and Marion County (Indianapolis) used to be pretty conservative as well. Sure, the urban cores of these cities are Democratic (and Indianapolis annexed almost all of its suburbs), but relative to rural southern counties that went for Clinton in 1992 and 1996, these urban counties seems more conservative in a sense.

Here's the 1996 map:

[Asian Nazi]

This is very true for Stockholm and probably Uppsala as well, but how true is it for Gothenburg and Malmo? Those are strongholds of SD, being working class and immigrant-heavy, I believe.

I asked this question to a Swedish friend of mine and this was his response:

"Basically, Swedish cities all fall into one of two categories
On the one hand you have old industrial cities, which often used to be very large but are now in decline
they tend to be dominated by the white working-class, and thus by the social democrats
On the other hand you have old church or military towns
which often used to be very small, but have grown of late
they used to be small and conservative, and most of the people who live there now are students and former students, who tend to lean sort of centrist/liberal
Gothenburg and Malmö both fall into the former group (although less in decline because they were already big enough to stay afloat) while Uppsala is like the ultimate poster child for the latter group
Stockholm, being the capital, has elements of both
but since it's a huge city with a poor housing market, lower-class people tend to be priced out of the inner city
so the inner city becomes wealthy and right-leaning
The presence of immigrant groups in all three big cities pushes them leftward, but not enough in Stockholm's case to make much of a difference
which is partly because most of the housing estates where immigrants live are in neighbouring municipalities and not the city itself"

"Also, I should point out that Uppsala is not normally counted with the big cities, partly because of its aforementioned recent rise, partly because it's still quite a bit smaller than Malmö
It does serve a good purpose to illustrate the second category of cities
Malmö and Norrköping being the purest forms of category 1"

[checkers]

There's no reason why large urban areas can't be conservative. The phenomena you're referring to is a product of the distinct class/demographic patterns of American cities (which, really, the conservative "suburbs" are a part of - making them an example of a conservative urban-type area). I'd say that the insistence that a lot of Americans make that cities and suburbs are totally distinct is a product of the same phenomena. 

So there's that. Can't think of any other countries where urban areas are more conservative, though.

I believe the Czech Republic votes along similar lines - probably due to the fact that Prague's generally a lot more prosperous than the rural areas. Not sure if the same applies to other post-Eastern Bloc countries. Here in Australia, where suburbs are part of the city, there's no real relation between density and politics - the big capital cities tend to split between parties, while there are strongly LNP urban areas (the Gold Coast), and Labor rural areas (the Hunter Valley).

[DavidB.]

The presence of immigrant groups in all three big cities pushes them leftward, but not enough in Stockholm's case to make much of a difference
which is partly because most of the housing estates where immigrants live are in neighbouring municipalities and not the city itself

The bolded claim is not really true. It is true for the Botkyrka suburbs (Hallunda/Norsborg/Alby), which are bad, and then there's a few to the south of the city, but almost all the other immigrant suburbs in Stockholm are located in the Stockholm municipality, even if some of them are very far away from the city center.

[Sbane]

Minorities won't vote for the GOP due to identity politics stoked by Democrats.  That's really the main thing

No, it's because the Republican base is racist. And before you say anything else, Donald Trump.

For someone with as many posts as you, I'd expect a more articulate post like "there are racist elements in the Republican base that repulse minorities," rather than a statement some eighth grade "Democrat" would make like "Republican base = racist."

Those racist elements make up slightly more than a majority, thus they are the base. I guess I could use more fancy language if you would like but in the end what I said is the truth.

[traininthedistance]

The emphasis on minorities in this thread ignores that urban whites are also a solid D group. It's more of a urban culture issue than people are making it out to be.

Urban culture is unsustainable if hell breaks loose, just saying.

Dude, if all hell breaks lose the exurbs are the first to go.  Massive fossil fuel subsidies, highway and utility spending, etc., ain't "self-reliant."

If you really wanted a true free market with no government largesse, you'd have creature comforts in the cities where there'd be enough people to provide it efficiently, and the burbs would become the slums.

And Arizona would be almost completely depopulated, because lol where are you getting your water from?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

^^^

Thing you need to remember is that suburbs and 'exurbs' and, yes, even commuter towns are, in fact, urban. You're townies, the lot of you.