Flint's water issues

[user12345]

This needs to be getting more national attention. If terrorists had killed and injured this many people the news would be all over it and we would be debating new laws to prevent more attacks, but since its water no one nationally seems to care or know its going on.

[Virginiá]

This needs to be getting more national attention. If terrorists had killed and injured this many people the news would be all over it and we would be debating new laws to prevent more attacks, but since its water no one nationally seems to care or know its going on.

If the only difference here was replacing Snyder/emergency manager with 'terrorists', then not only would Congress have passed a pre-written bill to take away more rights, but the only priority on the hill at this moment would be where to send troops / aircraft carriers / missiles, and how many.

I'm not even exaggerating.

[This account no longer in use.]

So much for Snyder having a chance at getting re-elected.

[Virginiá]

So much for Snyder having a chance at getting re-elected.

He is term-limited, and thanks to Snyder & friends incompetence & willful disregard for public safety in favor of pinching pennies, Democrats will likely have a good chance of picking up his office in 2018, which would eliminate Republicans' ability to rig the maps in 2021.

So in reality, his terrible actions here have likely put the GOP stranglehold on Michigan's government in serious jeopardy.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

So much for Snyder having a chance at getting re-elected.

He is term-limited, and thanks to Snyder & friends incompetence & willful disregard for public safety in favor of pinching pennies, Democrats will likely have a good chance of picking up his office in 2018, which would eliminate Republicans' ability to rig the maps in 2021.

So in reality, his terrible actions here have likely put the GOP stranglehold on Michigan's government in serious jeopardy.

I don't know - even without mass lead poisoning, voters have very poor memories. If Snyder is smart he could bury this under endless committees and then blame some fallguy; and by next election that time the governor poisoned everyone will be a distant foggy memory.

[The Other Castro]

Some are calling for Snyder to resign if he knew about the situation beforehand, including Bernie Sanders and Michigan House Democratic Leader Tim Greimel.

[Virginiá]

I don't know - even without mass lead poisoning, voters have very poor memories. If Snyder is smart he could bury this under endless committees and then blame some fallguy; and by next election that time the governor poisoned everyone will be a distant foggy memory.

That is true - I think it depends on how the situation develops between now and the end of 2016. At the very least, Democrats have a good narrative to set for 2018: "Failed Republican policies literally poison Michigan". In this case, from what I know, I think for once this actually is quite literally a failure of Republican policy. They pushed through a bill requiring oversight in the form of emergency managers, which was repealed via a veto referendum, and then they passed a new one resulting in basically the same situation except they added funds appropriation to it to make it veto-proof.

State Republicans repeatedly went against the wishes of the citizens, and the result was poisoning an entire city's water supply with lead. I guess it would be foolhardy to think Democrats will coast into office in 2018, but I think they are now better positioned than before to break the hold Republicans have had on Michigan for over 2 decades.

[Bojack Horseman]

I don't know - even without mass lead poisoning, voters have very poor memories. If Snyder is smart he could bury this under endless committees and then blame some fallguy; and by next election that time the governor poisoned everyone will be a distant foggy memory.

That is true - I think it depends on how the situation develops between now and the end of 2016. At the very least, Democrats have a good narrative to set for 2018: "Failed Republican policies literally poison Michigan". In this case, from what I know, I think for once this actually is quite literally a failure of Republican policy. They pushed through a bill requiring oversight in the form of emergency managers, which was repealed via a veto referendum, and then they passed a new one resulting in basically the same situation except they added funds appropriation to it to make it veto-proof.

State Republicans repeatedly went against the wishes of the citizens, and the result was poisoning an entire city's water supply with lead. I guess it would be foolhardy to think Democrats will coast into office in 2018, but I think they are now better positioned than before to break the hold Republicans have had on Michigan for over 2 decades.

Not only that, but the candidates planning to run for the GOP nomination are all bozos anyway. Bill Scheutte has just gone on one right-wing crusade after another as AG, and being the second-in-command  of the Dave Agema wing of the Republican Party won't get you in office, as Terri Lynn Land found out. Other than him, there's Candace Miller who's yet another homophobic "family values" bigot. Their field is looking worse than the 2016 GOP lineup. I think Macomb County executive Mark Hackel is the best guy to carry the Democrats to victory, personally.

[TJ in Oregon]

It probably would have been a decent idea for Flint to get their water from the Flint River had the decision been managed correctly. The main problem that caused the lead poisoning seems to have been pH, which is incredibly easy to fix (the other being chlorine but they added to filter to remove that).

Municipal water isn't supposed to be something addressed by trial-and-error though. Someone in an engineering department somewhere along the planning process royally screwed this up.

[Virginiá]

It could give them the lower chamber of the state legislature this year if the Dem wins nationally and they play their cards right.  People need to be put on trial for this prior to 2018.  Who initiates it and who fights it will determine how the end game plays out.  It does give national Democrats a rare opportunity to reach moderates on the environment when they have been stuck backing stuff that feels out of the mainstream/low priority to many over the past 4 years.  Lead poisoning is a real and scientifically indisputable harm and if national Republicans dismiss it or fight this too hard it will look very bad for them. 

That is true. I forgot to consider their legislative elections in 2016. However, now that you bring that up, wouldn't them winning the chamber in 2016 sort of be useless for 2021's redistricting? The maps for Michigan's state house are rigged for the GOP and I can't help but feel like in 2018 they would swept back out. Not sure if potential gubernatorial coattails would be sufficient in this case.

[Bojack Horseman]

It could give them the lower chamber of the state legislature this year if the Dem wins nationally and they play their cards right.  People need to be put on trial for this prior to 2018.  Who initiates it and who fights it will determine how the end game plays out.  It does give national Democrats a rare opportunity to reach moderates on the environment when they have been stuck backing stuff that feels out of the mainstream/low priority to many over the past 4 years.  Lead poisoning is a real and scientifically indisputable harm and if national Republicans dismiss it or fight this too hard it will look very bad for them. 

That is true. I forgot to consider their legislative elections in 2016. However, now that you bring that up, wouldn't them winning the chamber in 2016 sort of be useless for 2021's redistricting? The maps for Michigan's state house are rigged for the GOP and I can't help but feel like in 2018 they would swept back out. Not sure if potential gubernatorial coattails would be sufficient in this case.

I honestly think that no matter who the President is, we're going to elect a Democratic Governor here in Michigan in 2018, for the same reason we overwhelmingly elected Gary Peters to the Senate in 2014: the Republican candidates are bozos and you've got this kind of political ammunition.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

lol the residents of Flint are apparently still being charged full price for the privilege of poison water.

[Bojack Horseman]

lol the residents of Flint are apparently still being charged full price for the privilege of poison water.

My aunt's bill was $97 last month for lead-filled, chock full of chemicals water that's totally unusable.

[dead0man]

I know I started this thread, and started it bashing the Governor and the Emergency Manager*, but it wasn't a GOP Gov that was governing Flint for the many decades before that put them in the financial hell they find themselves in.  In 2011, every city resident would have had to pay 10k in taxes just to cover unfunded legacy costs (read:pensions).  That is no doubt much higher now.  I'm not defending Snyder or the GOP, I'm just saying it would be stupid to reward the Democrats for this and it's quite odd that of all the politicians involved, only one has been repeatedly singled out here.



*anybody have any theories as to why he (the EM) isn't taking more heat from the left?  I've got a couple.

[The Dowager Mod]

[dead0man]

Did the Republicans in Lansing get them into pension trouble or locally elected officials?

[Virginiá]

Did the Republicans in Lansing get them into pension trouble or locally elected officials?

Oh sheesh you're right I completely misinterpreted that somehow. Sorry! I'm just going to delete that.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

That's part of the problem with American municipal governments - local governments shouldn't have to shoulder that kind of debt because they are so susceptible to capital flight. I don't doubt that the local government (being a town in Mchigan) was corrupt as hell (as local governments tend to be) but even with a squeaky clean reputation, municipal government as it is structured in America is built to fail.

Still, that's by the by - the Emergency Manager system is a terrible idea, because it posits that the problem with these municipalities are not structural, but cosmetic.

[tschandler]

It is telling the blame around here is directed as Snyder not the actual officials in control of the issue including the EPA. 

[Brittain33]

It is telling the blame around here is directed as Snyder not the actual officials in control of the issue including the EPA. 

Didn't Snyder appoint the emergency manager in control of the issue? The whole point of an emergency manager is for the state executive to step in for local government.

[dead0man]

So, what you're saying is that if a white GOP town ran itself into stupid amounts of debt, so bad that it had to be saved by a Dem gov, who then appointed a white GOP guy to run the town, who then did the same serious of stupid things as happened here....you guys would only be bitching about the Dem gov?  Dubious.

[they don't love you like i love you]

So, what you're saying is that if a white GOP town ran itself into stupid amounts of debt, so bad that it had to be saved by a Dem gov, who then appointed a white GOP guy to run the town, who then did the same serious of stupid things as happened here....you guys would only be bitching about the Dem gov?  Dubious.

Two words: Andrew Cuomo. How popular is he amongst forum Democrats?

(And that's exactly the sort of thing that he'd do as well.)

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

So, what you're saying is that if a white GOP town ran itself into stupid amounts of debt, so bad that it had to be saved by a Dem gov, who then appointed a white GOP guy to run the town, who then did the same serious of stupid things as happened here....you guys would only be bitching about the Dem gov?  Dubious.

err yeah, obviously ...

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

It is telling the blame around here is directed as Snyder not the actual officials in control of the issue including the EPA. 

Oh yeah, the lower down people are easy targets, and are probably packing their desks as we speak. But in such a disaster you have to look at the culture that allowed it to happen, and people at the top have to take the fall. It's why Chung Hong-won resigned after the Sewol and why the Latvian government resigned after the Zolitūde shopping centre collapse: although they didn't directly cause the disasters, they tolerated a system of neglect that allowed such a thing to happen. In this case, a huge amount of Michigan officials appear to have been complicit in obscuring, fudging and evading data. The fact that his EM did it was a blunder. The fact that Michigan tried to cover up their mistakes is unforgivable, and an indictment of the Governor's management.

[tschandler]

It is telling the blame around here is directed as Snyder not the actual officials in control of the issue including the EPA. 

Oh yeah, the lower down people are easy targets, and are probably packing their desks as we speak. But in such a disaster you have to look at the culture that allowed it to happen, and people at the top have to take the fall. It's why Chung Hong-won resigned after the Sewol and why the Latvian government resigned after the Zolitūde shopping centre collapse: although they didn't directly cause the disasters, they tolerated a system of neglect that allowed such a thing to happen. In this case, a huge amount of Michigan officials appear to have been complicit in obscuring, fudging and evading data. The fact that his EM did it was a blunder. The fact that Michigan tried to cover up their mistakes is unforgivable, and an indictment of the Governor's management.

The culture?  Flint is in debt because of the GOP?