Flint's water issues

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[TJ in Oregon]

It is telling the blame around here is directed as Snyder not the actual officials in control of the issue including the EPA. 

Didn't Snyder appoint the emergency manager in control of the issue? The whole point of an emergency manager is for the state executive to step in for local government.

Should we expect the emergency manager to have technical knowledge of the water treatment process? That seems to be where things went astray here, at least initially. It may be the case that the emergency manager simply refused to allocate funds to pH neutralization despite being told it was necessary. I doubt it but it's possible.

It's also possible the problem was brought to the manager's attention and he failed to act once it was identified. That's more likely, but we have no idea without some kind of investigation.

We do know already that the water testing for lead was being done incorrectly. It's possible the manager ordered them to do so. It would seem like an incredibly short-sighted thing to do, but possible.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Should we expect the emergency manager to have technical knowledge of the water treatment process?

We should certainly expect all such satraps to know the limits of their own competence. Actually, no, that's unrealistic: such people never do. This is why they should probably not exist.

[dead0man]

That's part of the problem with American municipal governments - local governments shouldn't have to shoulder that kind of debt because they are so susceptible to capital flight. I don't doubt that the local government (being a town in Mchigan) was corrupt as hell (as local governments tend to be) but even with a squeaky clean reputation, municipal government as it is structured in America is built to fail.

Perhaps, but why isn't every local govt about to fail?  Are there any other cities whose citizens own 10k each just to cover unfunded legacy costs?  There are local govts out there that haven't been forced by unions to swallow ridiculous pensions.  Add a little of The Curley Effect and you get the disaster that is Flint.  Sure, there are a lot of local govts on the verge of collapse, but...as far as I know, everyone of them is there because of unfunded pension problems.  It's certainly Omaha's biggest financial obstacle.  Cops, firemen and other local union asshats are greedy mofos.


Or perhaps it's all entirely Snyder's fault.  The EPA (for ignoring the problems), Detroit (for shutting the water off, for gouging Flint for years), 50 years of one party politics (gots to protect those corrupt politicos), the voters of Flint (for being idiots and voting in the same morons over and over agin), GM/Ford/Chrysler (for building sh**tty cars no sane person would want to own), the locally elected Flint officials that approved the plan before the EM even got to Flint, no, none of those groups get any blame, only the Governor.


note-I'm NOT saying Snyder deserves no blame, I'm just saying it's odd as hell that he's the only person or group taking any sh**t.

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If your argument is that local governments are (and always have been) incompetent, corrupt and useless then you'll find no argument with me; nor that federal government agencies are feckless and prefer to sit on their arse than doing anything useful, something I would agree with as well. Howver your statement that it is primarily the union's fault is all so easy! Would that it were a small number of evil public retired people hoarding their cash piles! One might also say that it is a tax structure that discourages investment in housing and has caused cities to fall in ruin, or the eight billion different governing bodies that could easily be covered by one, or perhaps the fact that the whole function of the city has vanished below its feet (imagine if, I dunno, a port city suddenly found itself 100 km inland); (far more importantly than public expenditure, which largely remained flat in real terms between the early 90's and bankruptcy) a severe lack of revenue and mismanagement of the pension by smarty speculators (there's a reason Detroit;s pensions really started to draw up red flags post-dotcom bubble bursting).

The fact is pensions are one of the few things keeping many families (with youth at historic unemployment levels) afloat in a city, in a system, where everything is structurally wrong. I would think that lowering them in such a time would be wise - but what do I know? I'm not the god of all economics. In fact nobody is the god of all economics, which is why the EM system is so ludicrous. It posits that if the Governor manages to pick some sort of individual superman he will magically restore what is an unworkable solution. No need for democratic accountability! Because he is the magicman! Nothing can go wrong!

[Virginiá]

It posits that if the Governor manages to pick some sort of individual superman he will magically restore what is an unworkable solution. No need for democratic accountability! Because he is the magicman! Nothing can go wrong!

Well, word is Snyder got a hold of a coveted money tree seed and dispatched his finest operative to Flint as an Emergency Manager, to oversee the growth of said money tree. Unfortunately, the lead water killed it.

So I guess we'll never know...

[ingemann]

I can only agree with Sibboleth and Crabcake in this thread, of course the buck should stop at the guy who decided the things in the first place, even if he lacked the competence to see the consequences of his actions.

As for the pensions, you can't do anything about them now, but if you people want a solution to avoid the problem in the future. Well the pension I get from my employer are paid every month to a union and employer organisation run pension company. This mean that the survival and size of the company I work in doesn't matter for whether I get my pension or not (and nobody are able to raid it). Of course that also mean that my employer are not willing to pay as big pensions as some American companies and cities, as the money are paid now, but it have thne benefit of it not being a gamble whether I get my money when I retire.

[tschandler]

It posits that if the Governor manages to pick some sort of individual superman he will magically restore what is an unworkable solution. No need for democratic accountability! Because he is the magicman! Nothing can go wrong!

Well, word is Snyder got a hold of a coveted money tree seed and dispatched his finest operative to Flint as an Emergency Manager, to oversee the growth of said money tree. Unfortunately, the lead water killed it.

So I guess we'll never know...

Except you know this was touted as a stimulus/jobs program.  And its a failure of central planning but we are going to sit around and pretend its a failure of markets or austerity.

[Ebsy]

It's very clearly a failure of austerity. The whole reason to change the source of water was to save money. Looks like Republicans finally found the only thing they can't get away with cutting.

[dead0man]

Actually, it wasn't done to save money, it was done to "create jobs".  Sticking with Detroit water was the cheapest option (despite what I said in the OP, I was wrong).

cite and cite

Looks like Dems found another story they can turn their back on once all the facts come out.

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Abandoning Detroit water and using Flint water were separate decisions. All this amounts to is finger-pointing between various bodies and people, and it certainly doesn't let Snyder off the hook.

[dead0man]

Oh there are plenty of people and things to blame, but austerity isn't one of them.

[dead0man]

Still incorrectly blaming austerity I see.

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Nevermind that getting water from Detroit was the known cheaper option.  The change was done to "create jobs".  I understand some of you don't want to blame govt "job creation" for this, but we really need to stop the falsehood that it's austerity that's at fault.  If they had gone the austerity route we'd have just ignored Flint the entire time, instead of paying attention to them for 20 minutes before quickly going back to ignoring them and the horrible position public employee unions got them in the mess.  (yes I know they aren't the only town being held hostage by the unions)

[pbrower2a]

This is a disgrace. It happens when power becomes more important than service in politics, when government at any level becomes dictatorial to the extent that those not with the current leadership are severed completely from any chance of regaining power.

This is as much ALEC, the Koch front for taking control of America state by state, as it is Rick Snyder -- the perverse dream of having a government by economic elites, for economic elites, and of economic elites with everyone else obliged to accede to some inexorable reality forever.  ALEC uses the state legislature, filling it with compliant stooges. Where the State that acquiesces with the power of the Koch brothers can't shut down cities that will never buckle under, the State government can take over the cities in question.

The Koch syndicate owns Michigan politics just like Al Capone owned much of Chicago-area government in his heyday... except that the Koch syndicate doesn't blast those who get in the way with lead bullets. It is entirely ironic that people get lead in a very different way.

 

[Virginiá]

Just thought I'd add this:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/03/house-democrats-flint-michigan-gop-election-220132

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I'm hesitant to think this will be enough to take back the Michigan State House, but combined with the Trump issue, I think this might be a powerful message this year. However, this whole disaster will probably hurt Republicans in at least 1 - 2 MI CDs, considering their winning margins aren't very significant due to the rigged maps.

!!!

[dead0man]

but, AGAIN, it wasn't austerity that caused this problem.  If the Michigan Dems are planning on running on a lie, well, I suppose that's what they always do.

[Virginiá]

but, AGAIN, it wasn't austerity that caused this problem.  If the Michigan Dems are planning on running on a lie, well, I suppose that's what they always do.

Ok, what is your source for this? Because as stated in this article (among others):

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/05/health/flint-michigan-water-investigation/

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Maybe you're talking about what was supposed to come after the temporary switch - When they went back to getting GL water? Because if so, it's irrelevant - They started using the Flint River water to save money, and the reason for wanting to save money during that time period is also irrelevant, even if temporary, because it was cheapness that brought about this terrible situation.

[dead0man]

I dunno, wasn't the water switch because the emergency manager wanted to save money and switched sources, then added chemicals to the water that corroded the pipes?

no, the switch was made to create jobs.  Staying with Detroit's water would have been cheaper than building a new system for a shrinking customer base.  That should be obvious.

cite and cite

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I believe that is the case, yes.

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What should have done when he found out?  What's been done since this became a big story?  Last I heard Flint residents were still being asked to pay for sh**tty water....at some of the highest rates for water....in the world!

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I agree, much of our infrastructure sucks and it's both Pubbies and Dems fault.


and we keep forgetting what got Flint into this position in the fist place.  sh**tty pension deals for public employees.  Again, every resident of Flint has to cover $18000 of unfunded money the city owes.  These poor people are screwed, but hey, the lawyers that work the many lawsuits that will come out of this will make MILLIONS!  And every other American will get to pay for all the idiocy in Flint and Lansing.

[Virginiá]

Right sorry - I had actually rewritten my post entirely to clarify as I thought I wasn't being specific enough, I didn't think you would respond as fast as you did. So my post was updated before you posted to address what you stated.

The end goal was to have a direct link whose pipeline would create temporary jobs, but until that was completed, the EM switched to Flint River to save money. I get the job perspective, but it doesn't change the fact that the water sources were temporarily changed to save money. Further, they knew there were problems pretty quickly and did nothing. So it doesn't matter what the long-term goals were. You could argue this wasn't part of a broad austerity agenda, but the reasons for the crisis were because they were cheap (and either general incompetence or gross negligence in favor of saving money, or some other messed up reason).

[dead0man]

I don't know.  All I do know is that it's silly and wrong to only blame Snyder and the Michigan GOP for this, no matter how well it aligns with ones larger agenda.  Yes, they suck, but they didn't force Flint voters to vote the same assholes in generation after generation.  Same with Baltimore, Cleveland, Detroit, etc.  You have one party city, you're going to have stupid pension deals, you're going to have corruption and they're going to make stupid choices like this.

[Brittain33]

I don't know.  All I do know is that it's silly and wrong to only blame Snyder and the Michigan GOP for this,

Snyder and the Michigan GOP made the decision to disregard many health warnings and threats about the water and continue to poison the people of the city because "they don't vote for us anyway." This is completely a political issue.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I think generally it is considered acceptable to blame the people who are responsible for a bad thing happening for that bad thing happening.