Houston clears Planned Parenthood... and indicts prolife activists instead. (user search)
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  Houston clears Planned Parenthood... and indicts prolife activists instead. (search mode)
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Author Topic: Houston clears Planned Parenthood... and indicts prolife activists instead.  (Read 2660 times)
TheDeadFlagBlues
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,990
Canada
« on: January 28, 2016, 11:10:55 PM »
« edited: January 28, 2016, 11:14:48 PM by TheDeadFlagBlues »


As I said, right wingers don't understand the concepts of legal and illegal.  You don't run a country based on what each individual determines in their head is right and wrong.  That is called anarchy.  Democrats support what we call laws.

I'm very far left. I just know that abortion is wrong.

Excellent riposte!

I know that abortion is right and very good because it prevents women from having children that they do not want, which increases their autonomy, promotes gender equality and is also very good news if one enjoys casual sex. That's my rebuttal.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,990
Canada
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2016, 11:43:22 PM »


As I said, right wingers don't understand the concepts of legal and illegal.  You don't run a country based on what each individual determines in their head is right and wrong.  That is called anarchy.  Democrats support what we call laws.

I'm very far left. I just know that abortion is wrong.

Excellent riposte!

I know that abortion is right and very good because it prevents women from having children that they do not want, which increases their autonomy,

This is a potentially good argument for abortion in a utilitarian moral framework.

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This is indisputably a good argument for abortion in a utilitarian moral framework.

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This is a disgusting argument for abortion in practically any moral framework.

I mean, it would be more congruent if you said "utilitarian moral framework" as well seeing as sex produces a lot of happiness when it's consensual but that's of little import.

Anyways, I'd argue that a fetus obviously and clearly impinges upon the autonomy of the mother. I'm not exactly breaking new ground by making this argument, of course, but it's worth re-stating that there are clear deontological grounds for abortion as a social good, which is actually the grounds for my argument. Coming from a perspective in which moral laws, set from by the self as a free/rational agent who has the capacity to choose between different conceptions of the good, are the highest form of ethics, it's not exactly hard to see why I would support "the right to choose" and why, as an individual, I might support abortion. Because I believe in family planning, the act of starting a family as an active rather than as a passive choice, I cannot condone the idea of a "unwanted" pregnancy, which flies in the face of my view of the family as a consensual arrangement freely chosen rather than as a burden imposed by someone else. The decision to have a child cannot be taken lightly and it is a choice. If it is not a choice, the child should not come into existence, that's preposterous.

To add to this, I think your argument is "fetus is a person" or something rooted in your faith, which is understandable, but I will stand for the claim that I am a utilitarian because I care more about living human beings and their capacity to live fulfilling lives crafted by their will than potential human beings. This is not to say that I do not think that the potential human beings, who have the genetic structure of a human being and who are living beings, don't have moral standing, they do, but that standing is clearly trumped by the mother's standing and both standings cannot be decoupled.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,990
Canada
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2016, 12:23:40 AM »
« Edited: January 29, 2016, 12:25:47 AM by TheDeadFlagBlues »

A family cannot a burden imposed by someone else?  That's funny, I don't remember choosing to come into existence into a family.

Um, that's my point, the experience of being a parent is distinctly different from being a baby; having a child without that being an active choice is a pretty terrible/disorienting/horrific experience. Being a child without choosing to be a child is, well, it's what everyone has been through.

That was my point: being a mature adult is qualitatively different from being a child and it's very different from being a fetus. From a moral standpoint, different rules apply, and the moral standing of a fetus is clearly different form the moral standing of a mature adult who can do Calculus or cook a tasty bowl of pasta or whatever. Our legal system acknowledges this distinction, as it should.

Am I saying that parents should be allowed to kill their children? No, of course not, children are also qualitatively different than fetuses seeing as, you know, they're not physically dependent upon their biological mother or surrogate mother.
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