was killing police officers in apartheid South Africa justified?
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  was killing police officers in apartheid South Africa justified?
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Question: was killing police officers in apartheid South Africa justified?
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yes
 
#2
no
 
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Total Voters: 28

Author Topic: was killing police officers in apartheid South Africa justified?  (Read 6068 times)
angus
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« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2005, 06:37:21 PM »

It's a very tough issue.  I remember seeing the movie "The Power of One"  In fact, I have to say it was one of the most moving, and saddest, movies I'd ever seen.  Ditto for "A Dry White Season"  I remember being happy, everyone being glad, about Mandela's freedom and egalitarianism sweeping Eastern Europe, South Africa, and all the rest.  Ah, those heady days of the end of the cold war and "freedoms" it wrought.  But, unfortunately for all South Africans, it's not gone as planned.  Actually, I was amazed, not just surprised, amazed, to see NGM do an article addressing this important and sensitive phenomenon, as it was growing rather PC through the 90s, but remember there was a change of editorial staff recently.  I forget exactly when.  There were a series of articles about mistreatment by the corrupt governments of the descendants of the European settlers by the Zulu and others, and the subsequent mass migration to Europe and the USA by those white refugees, not only from SA, but from neighboring nations as well.  Clearly it's a double-edged sword.  No one wants to see a small minority of German, Dutch, and French Protestant overlords opressing an indigenous South African People.  But then no Westerner wants to see the fall of a fairly productive nation into the sort of despair that prooves excellent breeding ground for the sort of hate and deceptions that spawn authoritarian Leftism.  I really offer no solutions nor alternatives, only commentary.  But it's clearly a shame.  And not what Mandela would have wanted.  I say that as someone whose political compass score is about exactly on top of Mandela as one can possibly be.  Well, be careful what you wish for!
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Rob
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« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2005, 06:40:13 PM »

I remember seeing the movie "The Power of One"  In fact, I have to say it was one of the most moving, and saddest, movies I'd ever seen.

You liked that movie? I hated it. I didn't care for the book, either.
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angus
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« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2005, 06:43:35 PM »

yes, bob, actually I did very much.  but I have to admit (true story) that a really hot chinese girl from Cleveland with a navel ring (first I'd ever encountered) was giving me a long slow blow job while it was on.  We'd rented it together.  Of course, I watched it again a few years later without distraction and enjoyed it again, but perhaps my associations were a bit skewed from the first viewing.  anyway, yes, I thought it was very moving. 

Was it the misrepresentation of the sport of Boxing that put you off?  because I think that's really the way it was in SA in those days.
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Rob
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« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2005, 07:38:23 PM »

yes, bob, actually I did very much.  but I have to admit (true story) that a really hot chinese girl from Cleveland with a navel ring (first I'd ever encountered) was giving me a long slow blow job while it was on.  We'd rented it together.  Of course, I watched it again a few years later without distraction and enjoyed it again, but perhaps my associations were a bit skewed from the first viewing.  anyway, yes, I thought it was very moving. 

Was it the misrepresentation of the sport of Boxing that put you off?  because I think that's really the way it was in SA in those days.

Hah, I'd like the movie too if that had happened while I was watching it. Wink

What I didn't like was the sentimentality of it. It was too much of a "feel-good" movie in the end, although admittedly it had some darker parts in it, which I like.
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opebo
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« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2005, 07:43:05 PM »

I don't like the term 'justified' - it implies objective morality.  However, I think killing police officers was a fine idea in South Africa, modern day America, or any other oppressed society.  However in most cases giving up ones pride and kowtowing to authority is a better move.  Alas, an ugly choice, but at least you don't get killed by the thugs in retaliation.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2005, 07:46:05 PM »

Killing is never justified, even in the worst of circumstances.

Situation 1 - A man is threatening to kill you. Is killing him not justified?
Situation 2 - A man is threatening to kill your family. Is killing him not justified?
Situation 3 - A man is threatening to kill an innocent person you don't know. Is killing him not justified?
Situation 4 - A man is threatening to kill multiple people you don't know. Is killing him not justified?
Situation 5 - A man is on the verge of commiting genocide. Is killing him not justified?

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Ebowed
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« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2005, 07:48:30 PM »

No, No, No, No, and No.
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Cashcow
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« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2005, 08:23:40 PM »


And here we see blind morality as the impending destruction of society.
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angus
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« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2005, 08:33:40 PM »

"Lord, I wish I could be peacful
But there can be no sequel
Now freedom must be fundamental
In Johannesburg or South Central"

From Township Rebellion by Rage Against the Machine

(with apologies to Milk and Cereal)


Like opebo, I object to objective morality, and thus the term justified, and I admit that I'd probably do the same, as I've said before.  But I think I have a hard time saying I support killing cops, or anyone else.  I guess you're asking whether I'd vote to convict these people of Murder 2 (or murder 3?) if I were on the jury?  The answer is:  I don't know.  Clearly there were some mitigating circumstances.  Clearly they are murderers.  It's really not an easy call.  If you think it is, then you probably shouldn't be on that jury to begin with.
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Richard
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« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2005, 09:27:58 PM »

I've always believed it is wrong to murder.
I agree.  Killing is never justified,
No hold on!!!!!!!!!  That is not what I said.  I said MURDER is wrong, not killing.  And boom, rest of your post falls flat on its face.  Next time, please read my post.
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Ebowed
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« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2005, 10:54:01 PM »

I've always believed it is wrong to murder.
I agree.  Killing is never justified,
No hold on!!!!!!!!!  That is not what I said.  I said MURDER is wrong, not killing.  And boom, rest of your post falls flat on its face.  Next time, please read my post.
Killing = murder.

Also, if you kill a police officer that is being brutal, you are giving him something he deserves, correct?  By your 'logic,' how is that murder, rather than killing?
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AuH2O
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« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2005, 12:50:05 AM »

Here's where I'm confused: if you have no food and are dying of AIDS, in what way are you "free?"
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2005, 03:42:59 AM »

Most black South Africans now admit Apartheid was actually good for them,

Excuse me? What on earth are you smoking kid?

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Named for one of the nasiest pieces of sh*t ever to get involved in international politics. And all because of diamonds...

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Eh? You should note that Zimbabwe is an ancient name for a large part of modern day Zimbabwe.

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Which has what to do with Aparthied? Has a lot to do with taking land from one group of bastards who did know how to make things grow and giving it to another group of bastards who don't.
The people that have really been hurt by all this is the black farm workers.

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Absolute rubbish. You're intellectual and moral dishonesty can be truely amazing at times Goldie

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Racist

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You're talking 'bout a different South Africa to everyone else I see? I didn't know that there were mass lynchings of whites by blacks, but hey; I bow to you're infinate knowledge of this subject.

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You mean AIDS? That would be happening no matter who was in charge; and do you *really* think the Apartheid regime would lift a finger to try to stop AIDS in the various black communities and townships?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2005, 03:46:05 AM »

Here's where I'm confused: if you have no food and are dying of AIDS, in what way are you "free?"

Most people in South Africa have food. Most don't have AIDS. Now, poverty and AIDS *are* a major problem and IMO it's time the rest of the world tried to do something about it.
We've all taken gold and diamonds from South Africa for a bit over a hundred years. Time to put something back methinks.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2005, 10:10:57 AM »

I've always believed it is wrong to murder.
I agree.  Killing is never justified,
No hold on!!!!!!!!!  That is not what I said.  I said MURDER is wrong, not killing.  And boom, rest of your post falls flat on its face.  Next time, please read my post.
Killing = murder.

No, it isn't. Killing in the defense of your life or the lives of others is not murder.
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David S
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« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2005, 10:59:21 AM »

I assume this was a response to John Dibbles post above yours.
That means you would not kill to defend your own life or your family, or to prevent genocide. Given that we have murderers, mass murderers, and Hitler wannabes still alive in the world it seems like folks with your attitude would be eventually removed from the gene pool.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2005, 11:01:00 AM »

I assume this was a response to John Dibbles post above yours.
That means you would not kill to defend your own life or your family, or to prevent genocide. Given that we have murderers, mass murderers, and Hitler wannabes still alive in the world it seems like folks with your attitude would be eventually removed from the gene pool.

No, unfortunately it won't - people like us, people who have the resolve to do what's needed, allow him to keep on living a life where he's free to think such things.
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Richard
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« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2005, 09:23:36 PM »

I've always believed it is wrong to murder.
I agree.  Killing is never justified,
No hold on!!!!!!!!!  That is not what I said.  I said MURDER is wrong, not killing.  And boom, rest of your post falls flat on its face.  Next time, please read my post.
Killing = murder.
No, if you're not educated enough to understand the difference between killing and murder (lets see, at least 4 languages I know has different words for the two and makes a clear distinction between the two), then we can stop arguing here.  I do not argue in such a manner with uneducated morons.

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It depends.  Just remember you are not judge, jury, and executioner.
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Richard
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« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2005, 09:27:03 PM »

Most black South Africans now admit Apartheid was actually good for them,

Excuse me? What on earth are you smoking kid?
It is actually quite true.  I was there recently and if you ask the laborers on the farms, most just want their simple life back.  They had their house, their farm, their animals, and were happy in life.  Now, crime is out of control and the country is miserable.

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Land wasn't taken from anyone.  It was bought.

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Perhaps, but you're saying it like that means a bad thing.  Name THREE countries that are prosperous growing countries with a healthy outlook on the future with a black leader.  Please do.
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Ebowed
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« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2005, 09:35:44 PM »

No, if you're not educated enough to understand the difference between killing and murder (lets see, at least 4 languages I know has different words for the two and makes a clear distinction between the two), then we can stop arguing here.  I do not argue in such a manner with uneducated morons.
This is the style Richius always uses when he's having an argument (I think he learned it from AuH2O): beat the person over the head with irrelevant insults like "you're an uneducated moron."  Obviously murder and killing have somewhat different meanings, but the outcome is the same: a human being is dead.

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It depends.  Just remember you are not judge, jury, and executioner.
If you favor the death penalty for rapists, I don't see why you're against killing brutal police officers.

I assume this was a response to John Dibbles post above yours.
That means you would not kill to defend your own life or your family, or to prevent genocide. Given that we have murderers, mass murderers, and Hitler wannabes still alive in the world it seems like folks with your attitude would be eventually removed from the gene pool.
John posed a set of questions like "If a man threatens to kill your family, do you kill him?"  My answer remains the same: obviously no.  First of all, it's just a threat, so I don't give a sh**t.  Second, why kill him?  Why not call the police and let them take care of the job?  All he needs to do is stay in jail.  I see no reason to kill the asshole.  As for the fifth question, relating to genocide, there's no reason to kill the guy-- just stop him from committing genocide.  John's questions were narrow-minded enough to assume that killing was the only option, other than just sitting there and watching the guy commit genocide.  But you can always stop him.  Get a gun and shoot the guy in the foot, give him some nice wounds, put him in jail where he can recover, and the guy won't be commiting any genocide.

No, unfortunately it won't - people like us, people who have the resolve to do what's needed, allow him to keep on living a life where he's free to think such things.
You are an incredibly pompous person.
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Cashcow
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« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2005, 09:36:50 PM »

Perhaps, but you're saying it like that means a bad thing.  Name THREE countries that are prosperous growing countries with a healthy outlook on the future with a black leader.  Please do.

Sooner or later, the U.S.
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Ebowed
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« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2005, 09:41:30 PM »

Name THREE countries that are prosperous growing countries with a healthy outlook on the future with a black leader.  Please do.
I agree.  Anytime a black person comes into power, the country is a failure.  Let's put the blacks in monkey cages where they belong.
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Richard
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« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2005, 09:49:37 PM »

No, if you're not educated enough to understand the difference between killing and murder (lets see, at least 4 languages I know has different words for the two and makes a clear distinction between the two), then we can stop arguing here.  I do not argue in such a manner with uneducated morons.
This is the style Richius always uses when he's having an argument (I think he learned it from AuH2O): beat the person over the head with irrelevant insults like "you're an uneducated moron."  Obviously murder and killing have somewhat different meanings, but the outcome is the same: a human being is dead.
YES.  But the key is the DIFFERENT MEANINGS.  At least you're not dumb enough to not recognize when you made a mistake.

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One was sentenced by a jury, the other was not.  However, I'm open to looking at circumstances in the latter.  Obviously if the brutal police officers were raping people, then you're justified in killing them.  (this is not murder)
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Richard
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« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2005, 09:50:57 PM »

Name THREE countries that are prosperous growing countries with a healthy outlook on the future with a black leader.  Please do.
I agree.  Anytime a black person comes into power, the country is a failure.  Let's put the blacks in monkey cages where they belong.
OK Ebowed and Cashcow, lets change the question.  My bad for phrasing it in a bad way.  I do apologize.  Question withdrawn.  New question:

Name THREE countries that are prosperous growing countries with a healthy outlook on the future that was built up by black people, with a black leader.  Please do.
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Gabu
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« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2005, 09:51:17 PM »

Perhaps, but you're saying it like that means a bad thing.  Name THREE countries that are prosperous growing countries with a healthy outlook on the future with a black leader.  Please do.

It would seem to me that the only countries to ever have a black leader would be African countries, most of which are already horrible places to live, so it's not exactly like we have a representative sample of black leaders to choose from.
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