Superdelegates are an affront to democracy and should not exist
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  Superdelegates are an affront to democracy and should not exist
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Author Topic: Superdelegates are an affront to democracy and should not exist  (Read 2851 times)
Ronnie
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« on: February 10, 2016, 03:10:15 AM »
« edited: February 10, 2016, 03:20:53 AM by Ronnie »

One thing I haven't understood is why there hasn't been any outrage about the embarrassing stain on the Democratic primary process that is superdelegates.  I don't praise Republicans about much, but at least their presidential nomination process faintly resembles a democracy.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2016, 03:15:12 AM »

Fun fact: superdelegates were originally created to minimize unwarranted party influence.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2016, 03:16:30 AM »

Add that to the list along with the caucus system, and having the shape of the nomination race decided by the same couple of states every four years.
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ProgressiveCanadian
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2016, 03:16:48 AM »

Add that to the list along with the caucus system, and having the shape of the nomination race decided by the same couple of states every four years.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2016, 03:17:24 AM »

Add that to the list along with the caucus system, and having the shape of the nomination race decided by the same couple of states every four years.
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Nichlemn
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2016, 04:09:06 AM »
« Edited: February 10, 2016, 04:21:09 AM by Nichlemn »

I don't they're a bad idea if they're only "used in emergencies". Like let's say John Edwards in 2008 had a narrow lead heading into the convention when his affair broke, the superdelegates could then stop him from being nominated. Or alternatively, if the race is extremely close, and maybe the delegate winner is the popular vote loser, it would arguably be better for democracy for the delegates to "overturn" the "popular will" (that isn't so "popular").
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Sir Mohamed
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2016, 04:12:03 AM »

Yes, it disadvantages outsiders. In all fairness, the Republican primary system is better in my opinion.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2016, 04:12:03 AM »

Also it will be better if hillaryh is the nominee so superdelegates cna change it if bernie wins
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2016, 04:44:27 AM »

A Hillary supporter once said that the superdelegates were created to avoid another 1972, where the Democratic nominee lost 49 states. However, that argument is fatally flawed. The first election with the superdelegates was 1984. Establishment candidate Mondale had a commanding lead in the superdelegates in his close primary with Hart. And he went on to lose 49 states.
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cxs018
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2016, 07:09:40 AM »

Theoretically, how would people react if Sanders won the popular primary vote, but the superdelegates made Clinton the nominee?
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sportydude
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2016, 07:36:35 AM »

Delegates as such are an affront to democracy.
Both presidential nominees and presidents ought to be elected via popular vote.
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Shadows
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2016, 07:40:06 AM »

Agreed there should be a popular vote. Plus the number of Super Delegates are huge & can influence in a big way rendering a big win meaningless, further strengthening unholy alliances & establishment politics. Even the caucus in Iowa is bad for Dems compared to the GOP.

And I hope if by any miracle Sanders becomes the President, I hope he leads a reform, if possible, to abolish the Super-Delegate thing.

Even if Sanders get this kind of advantage, I would be against this, You can't start 700 votes behind, etc  potentially. Dumb thing!
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Coolface Sock #42069
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2016, 07:56:52 AM »

First, the United States has never been a democracy. It's a constitutional democratic republic.

But yes, the super delegates are one of many undemocratic features in presidential primaries. Others are:

Republicans giving blue districts just as much weight as red ones even though they have far fewer Republican voters. A Republican in Illinois 7 probably counts for 10 times what a Republican in Illinois 18 does.

Some states being winner-take-all and others proportional (GOP)

Some states voting earlier than others (California's primary just serves as a rubber stamp to the presumptive nominee while Iowa, New Hampshire, etc. really do the choosing)
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Kalimantan
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2016, 08:29:56 AM »

Theoretically, how would people react if Sanders won the popular primary vote, but the superdelegates made Clinton the nominee?

Won't happen, superdelegates are almost a ceremonial thing, they'll swing whichever way the wind blows. Take 2008. If all the superdelegates voted the way they originally pledged, Hillary would have been the nominee. But huge numbers switched to Obama because he won the popular vote. That'll happen over and again
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Blair
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2016, 08:40:11 AM »

I bet the republicans are praying they had some to stop Trump
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Beefalow and the Consumer
Beef
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2016, 09:00:32 AM »

How about we do this:

First week of Feb: Iowa Caucuses.
Second week of Feb: New Hampshire Primary
Mid-February: a small primary with actual demographic diversity, maybe?

Mid-March: ALL OTHER PRIMARIES.

In addition to state delegates, we also have national "at-large" delegates who are pledged to the winner of the national popular primary vote, either winner-take-all, or proportional.  A select few superdelegates (really, really important people, like party chair, elected officials, etc) are unbound.

That would be democratic.
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emailking
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2016, 09:02:15 AM »

Primaries in general should be done away with and we should do elections with something like Condorcet or IRV at worst, but that's neither here nor there I suppose.

Yeah, get rid of the superdelegates, caucuses, early states and such. Throw in the electoral college too. All of these things are an affront to democracy.
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jaichind
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2016, 09:07:00 AM »

Did not we fight this back in 2008.  I recall the de facto consensus the Dems reached in 2008 was that the Clinton Superdelegats will not overturn a Obama delegate majority won in the primaries/caucuses. 
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Beefalow and the Consumer
Beef
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2016, 09:25:01 AM »

Primaries in general should be done away with and we should do elections with something like Condorcet or IRV at worst, but that's neither here nor there I suppose.

Yeah, get rid of the superdelegates, caucuses, early states and such. Throw in the electoral college too. All of these things are an affront to democracy.

A nationwide primary with 15 candidates would be a cluster^@&#.  Do we really want a candidate who gets 18% of the vote to be the nominee?  Even with IRV, that's terrible.

There's a reason for the Parliamentary system.
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Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2016, 09:42:41 AM »

As long as Superdelegates isnt the differnce maker in determining the nominee. Like Clinton was trying to do in 2008, when she was behind Obama.
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HillOfANight
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2016, 09:44:18 AM »

Theoretically, how would people react if Sanders won the popular primary vote, but the superdelegates made Clinton the nominee?

A disaster. So are caucuses. So are the lily white and liberal early states.
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Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2016, 09:46:50 AM »

Thats not gonna to happen. The gun issue wont allow Blacks to vote for Sanders, since he is from Vermont. BLACKS are urban.
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emailking
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2016, 09:49:06 AM »

Primaries in general should be done away with and we should do elections with something like Condorcet or IRV at worst, but that's neither here nor there I suppose.

Yeah, get rid of the superdelegates, caucuses, early states and such. Throw in the electoral college too. All of these things are an affront to democracy.

A nationwide primary with 15 candidates would be a cluster^@&#.  Do we really want a candidate who gets 18% of the vote to be the nominee?  Even with IRV, that's terrible.

There's a reason for the Parliamentary system.

It's not 18% of the vote though. With IRV you're over 50% of the vote by the time you win.
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2016, 10:05:17 AM »

First off I do not understand why people call us a democracy while we are actually a constitutional republic. But super delegates are horrible and the Democratic Party should abolish them.
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Beefalow and the Consumer
Beef
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2016, 10:31:14 AM »

Thats not gonna to happen. The gun issue wont allow Blacks to vote for Sanders, since he is from Vermont. BLACKS are urban.

I think this speaks to a greater issue, that the Clintons are still an institution within the Democratic Party, especially among the core establishment, especially among African Americans.  White millennials didn't grow up with Bill Clinton, and don't remember eight years of economic growth and peace.  Bernie Sanders is a young, white phenomenon.

Hilary rides the coattails of Bill, and Bill is beloved and cherished.  He might as well be J F freaking K.  The media and internet frenzy around Sanders forgets this.
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