UK 'Brexit' Referendum on the EU
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  UK 'Brexit' Referendum on the EU
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Poll
Question: Will the United Kingdom vote to secede from the European Union?
#1
Yes
 
#2
No
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 81

Author Topic: UK 'Brexit' Referendum on the EU  (Read 11723 times)
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CrabCake
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« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2016, 07:48:48 PM »

The Treaty of Utrecht says that Gibraltar if it were to leave English-owned status would automatically be ceded Spain iirc. (Just found out) so that rules out the micronation idea.

Well yes but centuries old treaties can probably be changed. If it couldn't then Gibraltar would almost certainly refuse to leave the UK and the UK government could well get them a different deal with the EU than the rest of the UK. Trust me Gibraltan's fear of Spain's attempts to destroy their unique culture by submerging them back into Spain and their visceral dislike of the Spanish government is much stronger than their love of the EU.

It's a treaty that would have to be negotiated with Spain. With a likely PP government. They won't play ball. Basically Gibraltar is at the mercy of the British negotiators - if they are sold out to try and get Spain on the British side there is little legally the Gibraltar people can do about it.
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ag
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« Reply #101 on: June 26, 2016, 07:54:37 PM »

The Treaty of Utrecht says that Gibraltar if it were to leave English-owned status would automatically be ceded Spain iirc. (Just found out) so that rules out the micronation idea.

Well yes but centuries old treaties can probably be changed. If it couldn't then Gibraltar would almost certainly refuse to leave the UK and the UK government could well get them a different deal with the EU than the rest of the UK. Trust me Gibraltan's fear of Spain's attempts to destroy their unique culture by submerging them back into Spain and their visceral dislike of the Spanish government is much stronger than their love of the EU.

It's a treaty that would have to be negotiated with Spain. With a likely PP government. They won't play ball. Basically Gibraltar is at the mercy of the British negotiators - if they are sold out to try and get Spain on the British side there is little legally the Gibraltar people can do about it.

Actually, yeah. Gibraltareans must really hope Rajoy does not stay. Or else, they could be exchanged for Scotland Smiley
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Velasco
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« Reply #102 on: June 26, 2016, 09:03:48 PM »

The Treaty of Utrecht says that Gibraltar if it were to leave English-owned status would automatically be ceded Spain iirc. (Just found out) so that rules out the micronation idea.

Well yes but centuries old treaties can probably be changed. If it couldn't then Gibraltar would almost certainly refuse to leave the UK and the UK government could well get them a different deal with the EU than the rest of the UK. Trust me Gibraltan's fear of Spain's attempts to destroy their unique culture by submerging them back into Spain and their visceral dislike of the Spanish government is much stronger than their love of the EU.

A joint sovereignty does not necessarily implies that the identity or culture of Gibraltar is going to be submerged. The people of Gibraltar and their Andalusian neighbours have a peaceful cohabitation. I don't know why it should have to change. The inhabitants of the Rock would be still British citizens. Also, you seem to ignore the problems that the status of Gibraltar causes on tax evasion (the Rock is a tax haven), smuggling or the occasional disputes on the waters of the Bay of Algeciras. Joint sovereignty or a fair renegotiation of the Utrecht treaties (by which Menorca island was taken off from Spain, to be later recovered) could solve some of these problems, not stupid chauvinism.
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ag
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« Reply #103 on: June 27, 2016, 12:50:44 AM »

The Treaty of Utrecht says that Gibraltar if it were to leave English-owned status would automatically be ceded Spain iirc. (Just found out) so that rules out the micronation idea.

Well yes but centuries old treaties can probably be changed. If it couldn't then Gibraltar would almost certainly refuse to leave the UK and the UK government could well get them a different deal with the EU than the rest of the UK. Trust me Gibraltan's fear of Spain's attempts to destroy their unique culture by submerging them back into Spain and their visceral dislike of the Spanish government is much stronger than their love of the EU.

A joint sovereignty does not necessarily implies that the identity or culture of Gibraltar is going to be submerged. The people of Gibraltar and their Andalusian neighbours have a peaceful cohabitation. I don't know why it should have to change. The inhabitants of the Rock would be still British citizens. Also, you seem to ignore the problems that the status of Gibraltar causes on tax evasion (the Rock is a tax haven), smuggling or the occasional disputes on the waters of the Bay of Algeciras. Joint sovereignty or a fair renegotiation of the Utrecht treaties (by which Menorca island was taken off from Spain, to be later recovered) could solve some of these problems, not stupid chauvinism.

Well, up till now "joint sovereignty" has been a very dirty word/phrase for nearly all Gibraltarians. Perhaps, this is the time for the Spanish government to start working on hearts and minds Smiley
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exnaderite
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« Reply #104 on: June 27, 2016, 01:14:19 AM »
« Edited: June 27, 2016, 01:35:35 AM by Thoughtful Cynic »

Maybe after several years of economic instability, the Spanish government offers Gibraltar a status akin to Hong Kong - control over its borders, English laws, English language, etc. It negotiates a special status for Gibraltar within the European market but outside the VAT zone - leaving England fuming with envy.

EDIT: If the Spanish government is really serious about taking Gibraltar, it should quietly start offering Spanish passports to all Gibraltar residents, and then announce the uptake figures when it wants to build a propaganda case for its "Special Administrative Region" proposal.
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ag
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« Reply #105 on: June 27, 2016, 11:22:48 AM »

So, Gibraltar government is in talks with the Scottish government on maintaining the UK membership in the EU. They are also considering approaching Northern Ireland. I mean, why not let England and Wales join Jersey, Guernsey and Man as non-EU parts of the realm Smiley

Neat idea. Pity, it won´t fly.
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ag
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« Reply #106 on: June 27, 2016, 11:35:44 AM »

Seems like Boris Johnson is not in the Commons today. At least, he has not been heard from in the debate (where pretty much everybody else, of consequence or not, has spokent). Dear me, perhaps the guy is sick? What else would explain such reticense?
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ag
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« Reply #107 on: June 27, 2016, 11:36:28 AM »

Germany, of course, rules out any informal talks before Article 50 is triggered.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #108 on: June 27, 2016, 01:36:50 PM »

Germany, of course, rules out any informal talks before Article 50 is triggered.

Good.
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Slow Learner
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« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2016, 04:36:50 PM »

So, Gibraltar government is in talks with the Scottish government on maintaining the UK membership in the EU. They are also considering approaching Northern Ireland. I mean, why not let England and Wales join Jersey, Guernsey and Man as non-EU parts of the realm Smiley

Neat idea. Pity, it won´t fly.
That seems rather outlandish.
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