Scotch-Irish?

[King of Kensington]

This seems to be an American term for Ulster Scots.  In popular culture the Scotch-Irish are thought to be synonymous with Southern whites in general and Appalachia in particular.  For instance, I recall reading that Obama couldn't appeal to the "Scotch-Irish vote" as if that exists.

Most actual data I've seen says that English ancestry is more common than Scots-Irish ancestry in Appalachia.  I've seen advocates of this argument stretch the definition of "Celtic peoples" to include even the northern English, and say they were fundamentally different from Puritan Anglo Saxons of New England.

Has this taken off because the English in America are thought of as upper class and Celtic people have a more "romantic" image (the freedom loving Braveheart stereotype)?

[afleitch]

Unless you are descended from a plantation Scot who moved to Ulster in the 1600's and then to the USA then if you call yourself Scots-Irish, your face should be pushed into a wall. Besides the correct term is Ulster Scots (which I am on my dads side, Scots who moved to Ulster who moved back to Scotland)

That's all I can contribute here

[Asian Nazi]

At the time most of these people emigrated (the 1700's and early 1800's) there wasn't really a singular "English" identity and I doubt most of the "Northern English" identified as English or with England.  The book American Nations by Colin Woodard goes into some detail about the origins of the settlers in Greater Appalachia.  Those that didn't come from Ulster came from the war-torn, impoverished border region between what we now know as Scotland and England.  Most of these people now identify as "American" on census forms and such, which is hardly surprising as the vast majority of these people's ancestors have been here since before the United States was even a thing.

The only parts of the country with plurality English ancestry are the Mormon Belt and Upper New England.

[patrick1]

Most people who have lineage that extends as far back as the Scotch Irish emigration will be a hodgepodge of Scottish, Ulster, Irish, English Welsh etc.

And yes I do think that there is a level of Anglophobia that stretches back in this country to the Revolution.  Hence in the south, you will see more identifying as plan American or Scotch Irish and the phenomenon of seemingly everyone claiming some Native American ancestry.

[jimrtex]

This seems to be an American term for Ulster Scots.  In popular culture the Scotch-Irish are thought to be synonymous with Southern whites in general and Appalachia in particular.  For instance, I recall reading that Obama couldn't appeal to the "Scotch-Irish vote" as if that exists.

Most actual data I've seen says that English ancestry is more common than Scots-Irish ancestry in Appalachia.  I've seen advocates of this argument stretch the definition of "Celtic peoples" to include even the northern English, and say they were fundamentally different from Puritan Anglo Saxons of New England.

Has this taken off because the English in America are thought of as upper class and Celtic people have a more "romantic" image (the freedom loving Braveheart stereotype)?

American rebelled from England, so folks who came down the Valley of Virginia and into the upland South would not want to identify with being English, and to differentiate themselves from the Anglicans of the coastal lowlands who were mainly from the South of England. William of Orange was a hero to them, and they considered the Hanoverian regime to be a betrayal of the Glorious Revolution. The northwest of England was less influenced by the Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions, and so they would be more likely to identify with Scots, ignoring that there were Saxon kingdoms in Scotland.

A couple of censuses ago, the highest concentrations of "Irish" ancestry were in Massachusetts and Mississippi. Those in Mississippi are more likely to say that they are of "American" ancestry.

[King of Kensington]

But English ancestry was more common in the South in 1980 than anything else.  The only counties in the US where majorities said they were only English that year were in Eastern Kentucky. 

[Oldiesfreak1854]

My family has always referred to our ancestry as "Scotch-Irish," but what they really mean is part Scottish and part Irish.

[jimrtex]

But English ancestry was more common in the South in 1980 than anything else.  The only counties in the US where majorities said they were only English that year were in Eastern Kentucky. 

A non-English ancestry may be considered more exotic and have greater prestige. If a person had one German grandparent, and three English grandparents, they would be likely to report German-English, or German, particularly if their name was Schwartz, rather than Black. In addition the English ancestry may be more remote.

If the situation were reversed, with three German grandparents, and one English grandparent, the person would likely consider themselves to be of German ancestry.

[King of Kensington]

I agree that English ancestry is greatly undercounted in the US.  There were 50 million in 1980, but then it dropped to 25 or 30 million two decades later; the drop was especially dramatic in the South.

[King of Kensington]

There was a lot of direct immigration to Utah of Mormons from England in the 19th century.  I believe Utah was about 13% British-born in 1890.

Mitt Romney is descended from 19th century English immigrants.  Since his roots are in northern England maybe Jim Webb would consider him "Scotch-Irish."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18422949

[Filuwaúrdjan]

So much risible pseudohistory in this thread and so little time. Where even to start?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

At the time most of these people emigrated (the 1700's and early 1800's) there wasn't really a singular "English" identity

Yes there was. In fact there was much more of one than a French identity in France, a German identity in the German states, etc.

Of course Englishness differed (and differs) in different parts of England, but it is a big country (population-wise at least) and that kind of thing is absolutely normal. Of course it can also be true of very small countries, as in Wales.

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No, they most certainly did regard themselves as English and did so every bit as much as people further south. The Venerable Bede was a Northumbrian you know.

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The Border was (and is) lightly populated and there isn't much in the way of settlement continuity around it (Berwick-upon-Tweed is like the only significant exception). You cross the border and the accents change pretty much automatically. Quite different from the Anglo-Welsh border which is 'deep' and very porous. Cumberland is very English, Dumfriesshire is very Scottish.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And yes I do think that there is a level of Anglophobia that stretches back in this country to the Revolution.  Hence in the south, you will see more identifying as plan American or Scotch Irish and the phenomenon of seemingly everyone claiming some Native American ancestry.

^^^

If you want to answer the mystery of why so few Americans claim English ancestry when rather obviously a large majority of White (and... um... Black...) Americans have some, then the above is a better place to start. Your own cultural history is way more relevant on this point than ours.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The northwest of England was less influenced by the Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions, and so they would be more likely to identify with Scots, ignoring that there were Saxon kingdoms in Scotland.

...

Words fail.

No one outside Scotland would have identified themselves as Scots or Scottish or whatever. No one. Largely because they, you know, were not Scottish. In any case to most people in Northern England the Scots were a bunch of barely civilised nuisance neighbours who invaded every now and again, caused a mess, and buggered off home once they'd lost/run of supplies/etc...

[King of Kensington]

While it doesn't in itself disqualify the "Celtic thesis", the fact that neo-Confederates like it so much certainly makes it suspect to me.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Fwiw the traditional way of claiming different ancestry to those softies in the South is to point to Norse settlement and the Danelaw rather than 'Celtic' anything.

[King of Kensington]

If you want to answer the mystery of why so few Americans claim English ancestry when rather obviously a large majority of White (and... um... Black...) Americans have some, then the above is a better place to start. Your own cultural history is way more relevant on this point than ours.

I'm not sure if a majority of white Americans have English ancestry but it's far more common than what the census says (it's certainly not 9% or whatever).  In Pennsylvania and most of the Midwest I'm sure German ancestry has a plurality.  But the only areas where it can be said to be fairly uncommon are the NYC region and Wisconsin/Minnesota/the Dakotas.

In 1790 60% of whites were of English ancestry; surely the vast majority of those who trace their roots to colonial times have at least some English ancestry.  Plus later immigration from Britain and English Canada added to that.  

[Filuwaúrdjan]

My point is that your average White American probably has ancestors from as many countries as he/she has fingers.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

My point is that your average White American probably has ancestors from as many countries as he/she has fingers.

Remember how Phil used to throw a fit about how he was 100% Italian?

[tpfkaw]

And yes I do think that there is a level of Anglophobia that stretches back in this country to the Revolution.

Overstating the case. More like going back to election day 1960. (As the tipping point when people went from being proud of to embarrassed by English ancestry).

But English ancestry was more common in the South in 1980 than anything else.  The only counties in the US where majorities said they were only English that year were in Eastern Kentucky.

Just as people don't want to claim English ancestry because of negative stereotypes about "WASPs," so also many people would much sooner claim Englishness and be a WASP than be Scots-Irish and a "hillbilly."

[Asian Nazi]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if a majority of white Americans had at least one "English" ancestor. The idea that America is some cosmopolitan melting pot is a part of the national mythos and isn't really reflected when you look at the actual number of immigrants vs. natural population growth and internal migration. 

[Asian Nazi]

My point is that your average White American probably has ancestors from as many countries as he/she has fingers.

This is true now but wasn't necessarily so a generation ago and definitely wasn't two generations ago.  Intermarriage between various white ethnic groups is a relatively recent phenomenon.

[muon2]

If you want to answer the mystery of why so few Americans claim English ancestry when rather obviously a large majority of White (and... um... Black...) Americans have some, then the above is a better place to start. Your own cultural history is way more relevant on this point than ours.

I'm not sure if a majority of white Americans have English ancestry but it's far more common than what the census says (it's certainly not 9% or whatever).  In Pennsylvania and most of the Midwest I'm sure German ancestry has a plurality.  But the only areas where it can be said to be fairly uncommon are the NYC region and Wisconsin/Minnesota/the Dakotas.

In 1790 60% of whites were of English ancestry; surely the vast majority of those who trace their roots to colonial times have at least some English ancestry.  Plus later immigration from Britain and English Canada added to that.  

During the 1976 election it was revealed that Ford and Carter were very distant cousins. The researcher also noted that just about every white American who had an ancestor here during the Revolution was almost certainly at least 7th cousins with any one else here with a similar ancestral tie. So, yes everyone with such ancestor has English ancestry.

What people claim as ancestry is not usually the full mix, or even the most prominent fraction of ancestry. Usually it is based on the ancestry that has shaped one's family traditions - meals, holidays, religion. The Scotch-Irish were a major force in the shaping of the colonies during the revolutionary period and they did tend to settle the Appalachian frontier of the 18th century. I would expect that Americans who trace their family traditions to those particular ancestors would be most likely to consider themselves Scotch-Irish.

[King of Kensington]

Just as people don't want to claim English ancestry because of negative stereotypes about "WASPs," so also many people would much sooner claim Englishness and be a WASP than be Scots-Irish and a "hillbilly."

That census was taken long before Braveheart came out and Jim Webb wrote Born Fighting. 

[King of Kensington]

Pittsburgh was also known to be very Scots-Irish/Scottish, with immigration continuing into the 19th century, and the elite there tended to be Presbyterian rather than Episcopalian.