Scotch-Irish?

[King of Kensington]

White population in selected states, 1790:

Virginia

English/Welsh:  375,799  85%
Scotch/Irish:  40,233  9.1%

North Carolina

English/Welsh: 240,309  83.1%
Scotch/Irish:  39,039  13.5%

South Carolina

English/Welsh:  115,480  82.4%
Scotch/Irish:  20,023  13.4%

Even if we make the generous assumption that the Scottish/Irish share is double the reported figures, they still lag way behind the English.  

[King of Kensington]

A Celtic heritage for the Upland South would not be attributed to the Southern planter class - but rather to distinguish themselves from it. Similarly, former indentured servants, who moved west where they could own land, might have a folk memory of being treated as slaves by the Anglican planters.

But if most were never "Celtic" to begin with, why would they identify as such?

[sparkey]

Obligatory book recommendation: Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fischer.

Some things to know about the "Scots-Irish":

• Fischer prefers the term "Borderers" because when most use the term "Scots-Irish," they're referring to people with family lineages from the English/Scottish border who came to America in the 18th century.
• Many could trace their origins to Scotland, many came from Ireland (especially Northern Ireland), but many could trace their origins to England or elsewhere instead, and not all passed through Ireland.
• Those with origins in Scotland overwhelmingly came from the English-speaking Scottish lowlands. Some highland Gaelic speakers migrated around the same time, but they tended to cluster in places like the Cape Fear valley, and weren't traditionally lumped with the Scots-Irish.
• They were largely Presbyterian, and were largely small landholders. They were not typically indentured servants, the indentured servant "migration" happened mostly earlier, and tended to have a more southern geographic origin in England.
• They tended to just be called "Irish" in early America, the term "Scots-Irish" became more popular to distinguish from Catholic Irish later on.
• They were the largest migration of British people to colonial America, but didn't dominate the demographics necessarily because they were also the last (after the Puritans, Cavaliers/indentured servants, and Quakers).

[jimrtex]

A Celtic heritage for the Upland South would not be attributed to the Southern planter class - but rather to distinguish themselves from it. Similarly, former indentured servants, who moved west where they could own land, might have a folk memory of being treated as slaves by the Anglican planters.

But if most were never "Celtic" to begin with, why would they identify as such?

The critique of McWhiney's theories in Wikipedia said:

"However, McWhiney's theories do not address large-scale Irish immigration to New York, Boston, and other northern cities. They also ignore the degree to which the Southern planter class resembled the English gentry in lineage, religion, and social structure. Furthermore his work avoids mentioning or acknowledging the fact that the largest group of pre-Revolution immigrants to the Southern colonies were English indentured servants who vastly outnumbered the "Celtic" settlers both in numbers and in cultural influence."

My comments:

(1) They don't need to address the large-scale Irish immigration to New York, Boston, and other northern cities beginning in the 1840s.

(2) Having not read McWhiney's books, it is not clear whether he makes a distinction between the upland South, and the lowlands - one review of his book says he failed to do so. I assumed he had.

Those claiming Irish ancestry in Mississippi to almost the level of Massachusetts were in the northeastern corner. They weren't of the planter class. Nor were those who moved down the Valley of Virginia and through the Cumberland Gap.

An indentured servant is the equivalent of being leased; only slightly better than being owned. After you worked off your servitude, you would not be able to afford to own land. You might be competing economically with slaves and other indentured servants. So you head west.

If your new neighbor is O'McGibson are you going to complain that he doesn't have a powdered wig like your former master (not employer)? No you are going to get along fine, particularly if he has a comely, marriageable daughter. Your children might remember Grandpa O'McGibson, since Grandpa Smith died when you were 12 - that is why you ended up being indentured in the first place. Even if you were not wholly Celtic (O'McGibson wasn't either, being part Briton, part Celt, part Saxon, with additions of Norman and Viking). It doesn't take that many generations to go from identifying with the Celts to identifying as a Celt.

And from celebrating the Battle of the Boyne with parades and fireworks to celebrating the 4th of July with parades and fireworks.

[jimrtex]

White population in selected states, 1790:

Virginia

English/Welsh:  375,799  85%
Scotch/Irish:  40,233  9.1%

North Carolina

English/Welsh: 240,309  83.1%
Scotch/Irish:  39,039  13.5%

South Carolina

English/Welsh:  115,480  82.4%
Scotch/Irish:  20,023  13.4%

Even if we make the generous assumption that the Scottish/Irish share is double the reported figures, they still lag way behind the English.  

Do you have figures for counties?

[RINO Tom]

So I've been making a spreadsheet of the ancestry demographics of each state, and so far I have been combining "American" and English because of my very same suspicion that English ancestry is under-reported.  Is there a better suggested method that you guys think would be more accurate (because I now fear that I am almost entirely eliminating "Scotch-Irish").

I am also dividing the stated percentages by the total population and then dividing that number by the White population of each state, because I would be much more interested to know what percentage of White people are of each European ancestry (obviously MOST minorities are not going to be of majority European ancestry, LOL).

Very interested to see how this turns out.

I just started a new job (which could be a real positive turn in my career for how relatively young I still am), so I won't be finishing it anytime soon.  However, here is what I have so far (I cherry-picked some states that I thought would be more interesting):

TOP EUROPEAN ANCESTRIES BY STATE (% OF WHITE PEOPLE IN STATE) (English and "American" are combined into "English")
Illinois
29.50% German
18.60% Irish
17.60% English
11.00% Polish
8.90% Italian
3.40% Swedish
3.10% French

Indiana
26.40% German
24.20% English
12.50% Irish
3.50% Polish

Iowa
39.10% German
17.60% English
14.80% Irish
6.20% Norwegian

Minnesota
45.30% German
19.90% Norwegian
14.00% Irish
11.50% Swedish

Wisconsin
49.40% German
12.60% Irish
10.80% Polish
9.90% Norwegian
7.50% English
7.10% Italian

South Carolina
33.70% English
12.70% German
11.90% Irish

[King of Kensington]

So I've been making a spreadsheet of the ancestry demographics of each state, and so far I have been combining "American" and English because of my very same suspicion that English ancestry is under-reported.  Is there a better suggested method that you guys think would be more accurate (because I now fear that I am almost entirely eliminating "Scotch-Irish").

I am also dividing the stated percentages by the total population and then dividing that number by the White population of each state, because I would be much more interested to know what percentage of White people are of each European ancestry (obviously MOST minorities are not going to be of majority European ancestry, LOL).

Very interested to see how this turns out.

I just started a new job (which could be a real positive turn in my career for how relatively young I still am), so I won't be finishing it anytime soon.  However, here is what I have so far (I cherry-picked some states that I thought would be more interesting):

TOP EUROPEAN ANCESTRIES BY STATE (% OF WHITE PEOPLE IN STATE) (English and "American" are combined into "English")
Illinois
29.50% German
18.60% Irish
17.60% English
11.00% Polish
8.90% Italian
3.40% Swedish
3.10% French

Indiana
26.40% German
24.20% English
12.50% Irish
3.50% Polish

Iowa
39.10% German
17.60% English
14.80% Irish
6.20% Norwegian

Minnesota
45.30% German
19.90% Norwegian
14.00% Irish
11.50% Swedish

Wisconsin
49.40% German
12.60% Irish
10.80% Polish
9.90% Norwegian
7.50% English
7.10% Italian

South Carolina
33.70% English
12.70% German
11.90% Irish

Good stuff but it probably deserves its own thread.

[King of Kensington]

If your new neighbor is O'McGibson are you going to complain that he doesn't have a powdered wig like your former master (not employer)? No you are going to get along fine, particularly if he has a comely, marriageable daughter. Your children might remember Grandpa O'McGibson, since Grandpa Smith died when you were 12 - that is why you ended up being indentured in the first place. Even if you were not wholly Celtic (O'McGibson wasn't either, being part Briton, part Celt, part Saxon, with additions of Norman and Viking). It doesn't take that many generations to go from identifying with the Celts to identifying as a Celt.

And from celebrating the Battle of the Boyne with parades and fireworks to celebrating the 4th of July with parades and fireworks.

The Scots-Irish, being a minority, would melted into the larger Anglo Saxon group, not the other way around.

Since there was a lot of racist pseudoscience in the 19th century, you'd think there would be ample evidence that the planter class saw themselves as a different race than the poorer "Celts."

[jimrtex]

If your new neighbor is O'McGibson are you going to complain that he doesn't have a powdered wig like your former master (not employer)? No you are going to get along fine, particularly if he has a comely, marriageable daughter. Your children might remember Grandpa O'McGibson, since Grandpa Smith died when you were 12 - that is why you ended up being indentured in the first place. Even if you were not wholly Celtic (O'McGibson wasn't either, being part Briton, part Celt, part Saxon, with additions of Norman and Viking). It doesn't take that many generations to go from identifying with the Celts to identifying as a Celt.

And from celebrating the Battle of the Boyne with parades and fireworks to celebrating the 4th of July with parades and fireworks.

The Scots-Irish, being a minority, would melted into the larger Anglo Saxon group, not the other way around.

Since there was a lot of racist pseudoscience in the 19th century, you'd think there would be ample evidence that the planter class saw themselves as a different race than the poorer "Celts."

Who was there first - and who would have more of a community structure? Were indentured servants family groups? And wouldn't they be more comfortable aligning themselves with Dissenters, rather than the established church?

[King of Kensington]

In every Southern state in 1980, English ancestry outnumbered Irish ancestry.   And most of the former said they were only of English ancestry.  For the region as a whole:

English ancestry

Total:  19,618,370
Single ancestry:  12,382,681  

Irish ancestry

Total:  12,709,872
Single:  3,593,729

[jimrtex]

In every Southern state in 1980, English ancestry outnumbered Irish ancestry.   And most of the former said they were only of English ancestry.  For the region as a whole:

English ancestry

Total:  19,618,370
Single ancestry:  12,382,681  

Irish ancestry

Total:  12,709,872
Single:  3,593,729

Can you break that down by county?

[King of Kensington]

I don't know where to find it online. 

[jimrtex]

I don't know where to find it online. 

http://www.nhgis.org

Here is a peek: In 1980, single ancestry Irish, top 20:

22.0% Loving, TX (20 of 91 persons)
17.7% Lafayette, FL (Northern Florida)
17.6% Norfolk, MA (Boston suburbs)
17.1% Smith, MS (south central MS, east of Jackson)
15.7% Suffolk, MA (Boston, etc.)
15.6% Houston, TN (NW Middle Tennessee, west of Nashville)
15.1% Cleveland, AR (SC Arkansas, south of Little Rock)
14.6% Tishomingo, MS (NE corner of MS, 3.1% black in 2010)
14.1% Silver Bow, MT (Butte)
14.0% Hinsdale, CO (SW Colorado, west of Creede)
13.8% Webster, MS (north central MS, east-westerly of Yoknapatawpha County)
13.6% Clay, NC (western tip of NC)
13.5% Greeley, NE (east central NE - Wikipedia says 2nd most Democratic county in state)
13.4% Plymouth, MA (Boston exurbs)
13.3% Middlesex, MA (Boston suburbs)
13.0% Delaware, PA (Philadelphia suburbs)
12.8% Haralson, GA (Atlanta exurb, on AL line - has grown 50% since 1980)
12.7% Choctaw, MS (immediately south of Webster, see above)
12.7% Barnstable, MA (Boston retirement)
12.2% Stone, MS (panhandle, Biloxi exurb, doubled since 1980)

Source:

Minnesota Population Center. National Historical Geographic Information
System: Version 2.0. Minneapolis, MN: University of Minnesota 2011.

http://www.nhgis.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Data Summary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Year:             1980
Geographic level: County (by State)
Dataset:          1980 Census: STF 3 - Sample-Based Data
   NHGIS code:    1980_STF3
   NHGIS ID:      ds107
Breakdown(s):     Geographic Subarea:
                     Total area (0000)
 
Tables:
 
1. Ancestry
   Universe:    Persons
   Source code: NT28
   NHGIS code:  DG0

[King of Kensington]

Did they outnumber English single ancestry in the Southern counties on that list?

[jimrtex]

Did they outnumber English single ancestry in the Southern counties on that list?

No. The top are around 50%.

Irish outnumber English in counties with more than 12% Irish:

Massachusetts: Middlesex (1.68), Norfolk (2.30), Plymouth (1.34), Suffolk (3.65)
Montana: Silver Bow (1.52)
Nebraska: Greeley (3.24)
Pennsylvania: Delaware (2.16)
Texas: Loving (2.86)   Irish outnumber English 20 to 7.

If you reduce the Irish single ancestry to 5% (note percentages are relative to total population and not those reporting a single ancestry) you will find lots of urban counties in the northeast where Irish outnumber English. That is where post-Famine Irish displaced English, and have not become too dilute themselves.

There are lots of data sets here:

Minnesota Population Center. National Historical Geographic Information
System: Version 2.0. Minneapolis, MN: University of Minnesota 2011.

http://www.nhgis.org

They're free for non-commercial use and it is easy to register.

[White Trash]

The definition I've always heard has been protestant Irishmen and Scotsmen who intermarried and mixed after immigrating to America in the 18th century. Men from the same stock as Andrew Jackson.

[King of Kensington]

For St. Patrick's Day:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-Americans-are-more-Protestant-than-Catholic.html

[Gorilla Monsoon]

Here in Britain, the term "Scots-Irish" doesn't exist and understandably I was confused when I heard an American friend describe her heritage as such. I thought it meant a little bit of both Scottish and Irish (she has a very Irish surname which kinda lends credence to this). We just call them Ulster here and from what I believe they're largely of Scottish stock due to most native Irish being Catholics and the huge taboo on intermarriage between them and Protestants.